# "Israel's existence is illegal, therefore it should vanish?" (focusing on one argument only) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675 "2019-07-26T16:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/101 "2019-07-29T19:10:34Z")
There are areas like the West Bank that are not currently part of Israel and people living there have no Israeli citizenship. You can be a Palestinian or Arab or Muslim and also Israeli, but that is difficult if you live in Jericho or Ramallah, let alone Gaza. My impression is that the number of Palestinians who are trying to gain citizenship in Israel as it now exists is pretty small- does the option exist for them, and if so, for real and not as some sort of bureaucratic hell? A lot resort to working in and travelling to Israel illegally, or via some restrictive work permit that does not confer political and social rights. Also, I imagine that many Palestinians are not too fond of the government of Israel as it now exists and that they may not jump at the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/102 "2019-07-29T19:21:55Z")
Heck, I’m not too fond of the government of my nation as it now exists, either. So I vote to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/103 "2019-07-29T19:47:57Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > My impression is that the number of Palestinians who are trying to gain citizenship in Israel as it now exists is pretty small- does the option exist for them, and if so, for real and not as some sort of bureaucratic hell? Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem legally can apply to become citizens of Israel, but it appears from, e.g., [this _Ha’aretz_ article](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-east-jerusalem-palestinians-face-uphill-battle-in-bid-for-israeli-citizenship-1.6844543) that “bureaucratic hell” is a fair description: > [@](#): > > Although in principle the law allows Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem to receive Israeli citizenship, the obstacles on the way have become more and more difficult over the years. Simply getting an appointment to present the necessary documents has taken three years. Then it’s another three to four years until there is a decision. […] > > Lawyers are convinced that this is not something initiated by officials in East Jerusalem but rather a deliberate Interior Ministry policy to prevent the city’s Palestinians from becoming citizens. “It’s clear that the Interior Ministry doesn’t want these applications. They don’t want to pollute the Population Registry with more Palestinians,” said Adi Lustigman, a lawyer specializing in the issue. […] > > More than 95 percent of East Jerusalem’s Palestinians have residency status rather than citizenship. While the number of applications for citizenship has grown, from 69 in 2003 to more than 1,000 in 2018, very few receive a positive response. Palestinians in the occupied territories as opposed to East Jerusalem, AFAICT, are not eligible for either Israeli residency or citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/104 "2019-07-30T18:10:59Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Jesus, listen to yourself. 5% is not pretty good as a justification for taking the other 95% (or if you include the West Bank, the other 130%). Is that 5% an accurate depiction of the situation? My understanding was that before the creation of Israel, there were large regions of unpopulated desert. So it seems to me that a better measure would be the percentage of populated, economically valuable land that the Palestinians sold to the Jewish people. After all, if someone bought every town and city and farm in Canada, They probably wouldn’t own a significant percentage of the total area of Canada. But they would own a very high percentage of all the land that mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/105 "2019-07-30T21:52:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem legally can apply to become citizens of Israel, but it appears from, e.g., [this _Ha’aretz_ article](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-east-jerusalem-palestinians-face-uphill-battle-in-bid-for-israeli-citizenship-1.6844543) that “bureaucratic hell” is a fair description Not that it justifies whatever Israeli policy may be, but “bureaucratic hell” is a pretty good description of qualifying for citizenship in [numerous countries](https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/16009/explainer-how-long-until-you-can-apply-for-citizenship), including the EU (including such requirements as prolonged residency (which can be for up to 15 years), getting a societal “integration diploma”, meeting fairly stringent language and national history knowledge standards, giving “loyalty” declarations etc.). > **[5 of the Hardest Countries for Obtaining Citizenship](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/121114/5-hardest-countries-getting-citizenship.asp)** > > The United States is one of five countries that puts up very high barriers for foreigners to get citizenship. Here's how it compares to the other four. Hard to tell what the average waiting times are once you begin the application process in various countries. ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/106 "2019-08-09T19:31:43Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > If the existence of Israel is illegal, who determines that and enforces it? Who knows… It seems like “The West” will use the UN, etc., only when it helps, and ignore them when they disagree. What happened to the Oslo Accord? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/107 "2019-08-21T16:20:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This is what bothers me, and makes me suspicious when people claim that their arguments against Israel are not anti-semitic. Congratulations, you agree with Trump. Here’s another viewpoint, implying that people who say criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic are themselves anti-Semitic. How does it feel? > **['A Bullhorn to His White Nationalist Base': Progressive Jews Hit Back After...](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/08/21/bullhorn-his-white-nationalist-base-progressive-jews-hit-back-after-trumps-anti)** > > "This rhetoric from the president is going to get Jews killed. It already has." > [@](#): > > IfNotNow, a youth-led progressive Jewish advocacy group, quickly hit back, condemning the president for once again deploying the kind of hate-filled rhetoric that has fueled recent anti-Semitic attacks in the United States. > > “This is an explicit dual loyalty charge wielded by the president of the United States against 80 percent of American Jews who voted against him,” the group said in a statement to Newsweek, alluding to 2018 midterm election data from the Pew Research Center. > > “It is not merely an anti-Semitic dog whistle—it’s a bullhorn to his white nationalist base,” said IfNotNow. “American Jews and Democratic voters know full well the impact of the racist policies of Netanyahu and the Israeli government on the Palestinian people. This is why an overwhelming majority… oppose those policies, like unchecked settlement expansion.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/108 "2019-08-21T16:29:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not that it justifies whatever Israeli policy may be, but “bureaucratic hell” is a pretty good description of qualifying for citizenship in [numerous countries](https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/16009/explainer-how-long-until-you-can-apply-for-citizenship), including the EU (including such requirements as prolonged residency (which can be for up to 15 years), getting a societal “integration diploma”, meeting fairly stringent language and national history knowledge standards, giving “loyalty” declarations etc.). Very late in responding to this, and I don’t disagree with your statement of fact, but just pointing out that burdensome requirements for obtaining citizenship in a **foreign** country are qualitatively somewhat different from burdensome requirements for Palestinian **natives** of East Jerusalem to obtain citizenship in the national entity that controls East Jerusalem. Comparing requirements for immigrants to become naturalized in a foreign country to requirements for natives and lifelong residents of a region to obtain citizenship rights in the nation that controls their native region is a bit apples-and-oranges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675.md?page=5)