# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/181 "2011-10-21T04:55:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that it was the British who created Jordan, I’m a bit puzzled why you think that Jordanians are a legitimate nationality while Palestinians are “made-up”. Because they have an independent sovereign country. Borders. Currency. Form of government. All the accoutrements. The “Palestinian” nationality had none of that, and no history to make up for that lack. > [@](#): > > I’m also a little curious as to what makes you thinks the Jews in 1905 Jerusalem referred to themselves as “Palestinians” while the Arabs did not. I talked to old Israelis about that time. Not 1905 but a bit later. Yes, “Palestinian Jews” or “Palestinians” for short. Arabs used to call themselves “Greater Syrians”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/182 "2011-10-21T05:14:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So when people who have no connection to Israel get so worked up about it, the reason is “Jews”. There is no other explanation. This is absurd. Off the top of my head: -People can be bigoted against Israelis/Israel but not Jews. -People can subscribe to partisan doctrines and be anti-Israel because their political fellow travelers are as well. -People can mistakenly view Israel as a vestige of “colonialism” and therefore oppose it as the last relic of a discredited geopolitical movement. -People can be wilfully ignorant and may actually believe that Israel is committing slow-motion genocide. -People can simply accept the narrative that is told in certain circles like the European left and remain intellectually incurious and believe that Israel is one of the worst nations on the planet and/or deserves the lion’s share of global attention and condemnation. Of course there are some anti-semites who hate Israel because it’s the Jewish state, and some anti-Israel bigots who come to hate Jews because Israel is the Jewish state, but claiming that anti-Semitism is the sole cause of disproportionate anti-Israel fervor is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/183 "2011-10-21T05:17:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course there are some anti-semites who hate Israel because it’s the Jewish state, and some anti-Israel bigots who come to hate Jews because Israel is the Jewish state, but claiming that anti-Semitism is the sole cause of disproportionate anti-Israel fervor is nonsense. I didn’t claim “anti-Semitism is the sole cause of disproportionate anti-Israel fervor”. Where did you get that from? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/184 "2011-10-21T05:40:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > We certainly wouldn’t call Richard the Lion Hearted “a Frank” and we shouldn’t refer to Ibn Khaldun as “an Arab” which he’d have seen as an insult. You’re talking about Ibn Khaldun the North African historian, right? The guy who came up with a theory of history that says that civilizations become civilized and then decadent and then are taken over by barbarians who start the process again? I ask, because, first of all, in his autobiography, he defines himself as an Arab (which some historians think is an invention, but): > [@](#): > > And our ancestry is from Hadhramaut, from the Arabs of Yemen, via Wa’il ibn Hajar, from the best of the Arabs, well-known and respected And second, in his other book, the one with the theory of history, he goes on to discuss the Arabs, and even goes on to distinguish “people who are called Arabs”, by which he means people whose native language is Arabic, and “true Arabs”,and he goes on to define them (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Those who make their living by raising camels move around more. They wander deeper into the desert, because the hilly pastures with their plants and shrubs do not furnish enough subsistence for camels. They must feed on the desert shrubs and drink the salty desert water. They must move around the desert regions during the winter, in flight from the harmful cold to the warm desert air. In the desert sands, camels can find places to give birth to their young ones. Of all animals, camels have the hardest delivery and the greatest need for warmth in connection with it. (Camel nomads) are therefore forced to make excursions deep (into the desert). Frequently, too, they are driven from the hills by the militia, and they penetrate farther into the desert, because they do not want the militia to mete out justice to them or to punish them for their hostile acts. As a result, they are the most savage human beings that exist. Compared with sedentary people, they are on a level with wild, untamable (animals) and dumb beasts of prey. Such people are the Arabs. In the West, the nomadic Berbers and the Zanatah are their counterparts, and in the East, the Kurds, the Turkomans, and the Turks. The Arabs, however, make deeper excursions into the desert and are more rooted in desert life (than the other groups), because they live exclusively on camels, while the other groups live on sheep and cattle, as well as camels. > > **It has thus become clear that the Arabs are a natural group which by necessity exists in civilization.** In other words, “Arab” is a real term to him. He recognizes it as a distinct ethnic group, even if his definition of Arab is more limited than our definition of Arab. (He pretty much restricts it to the Bedouin.) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/185 "2011-10-21T05:40:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I didn’t claim “anti-Semitism is the sole cause of disproportionate anti-Israel fervor”. > [@you](#): > > So when people who have no connection to Israel get so worked up about it, the reason is “Jews”. There is no other explanation. Enough. There are already more than sufficient Dopers who will hop up on the cross and claim that nobody can ever criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite without you adding fuel to their persecution fantasies. Just quit it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/186 "2011-10-21T05:50:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Enough. There are already more than sufficient Dopers who will hop up on the cross and claim that nobody can ever criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite without you adding fuel to their persecution fantasies. Just quit it. Huh? Did I even mention anti-Semitism? Where are you getting this from? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/187 "2011-10-21T05:51:27Z")
As I have said before: criticizing Israel doesn’t make you an anti-Semite. Criticizing Israel _only_, and _never_ criticizing _any_ other country with the same vehemence, when you have _no_ personal connection to Israel whatsoever, makes you…let’s just say, motivated by something other than just a righteous sense of political justice. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/188 "2011-10-21T05:53:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? Did I even mention anti-Semitism? Where are you getting this from? When you said “So when people who have no connection to Israel get so worked up about it, the reason is “Jews”. There is no other explanation.”, I’d imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/189 "2011-10-21T05:58:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > When you said “So when people who have no connection to Israel get so worked up about it, the reason is “Jews”. There is no other explanation.”, I’d imagine. Where is anti-Semitism in that statement of mine? Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews. “Worked up” does not have to involve hatred, does it? When the aforementioned Malay or Nigerian or Ethiopian knows what “Jew” means but would have no idea what a “Basque” is, or a “Kurd”, or “Welsh” - is that “anti-Semitism”? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/190 "2011-10-21T06:07:14Z")
When the aforementioned people believe that Jews “secretly rule the world”, and when they believe, as you pointed out in your post, “blood libels”, then yes, that’s a claim of antisemitism. If you’re saying “The only reason people get worked up at Israel when they don’t get worked up at other countries is because Israel has Jews”, you’re accusing them of antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/191 "2011-10-21T06:18:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > When the aforementioned people believe that Jews “secretly rule the world”, and when they believe, as you pointed out in your post, “blood libels”, then yes, that’s a claim of antisemitism. If you’re saying “The only reason people get worked up at Israel when they don’t get worked up at other countries is because Israel has Jews”, you’re accusing them of antisemitism. Only if you prefer to think that way. I don’t. But I do think that the only reason people get worked up at Israel when they don’t get worked up at other countries is because Israel is a Jewish state. You avoided the question I asked before: when the aforementioned Malay or Nigerian or Ethiopian knows what “Jew” means but would have no idea what a “Basque” is, or a “Kurd”, or “Welsh” - is that “anti-Semitism” as well? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/192 "2011-10-21T07:16:58Z")
Not necessarily. But when you say “the only reason people get worked up at Israel when they don’t get worked up at other countries is because Israel is a Jewish state.”, if that’s not implying anti-semitism, then you’re going to have to spell out the implications of the statement, because I don’t get them. Why, in your mind, for non-antisemitic reasons, would somebody get worked up about a Jewish state? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/193 "2011-10-21T07:19:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Arabs conquer Persian Empire in 641 and wipe out Zoroastrians They did? They [didn’t do a very good job then.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrians_in_Iran) > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… Muslim doesn’t equal Arab. Would that this would sink in considering how often the two are conflated as meaning the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/194 "2011-10-21T07:21:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Not necessarily. But when you say “the only reason people get worked up at Israel when they don’t get worked up at other countries is because Israel is a Jewish state.”, if that’s not implying anti-semitism, then you’re going to have to spell out the implications of the statement, because I don’t get them. Why, in your mind, for non-antisemitic reasons, would somebody get worked up about a Jewish state? First of all, “worked up” does not have to be negative. It can be positive as well. There are plenty of people who have no connection to Israel who feel friendly towards it. As I said, it’s Jews. That may mean hate, love, like, curiosity or confusion, but there is no other people that invokes such “worked up” stuff. And it gets transferred to the Jewish State. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/195 "2011-10-21T07:23:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > They did? They [didn’t do a very good job then.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrians_in_Iran) Yes, there are some. They are a pitiful remnant. In one of my software contract jobs I worked with a Zoroastrian. We talked about the religion. According to him it is dying out. Most of the religious writings is lost. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/196 "2011-10-21T10:59:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, there are some. They are a pitiful remnant. Pardon, but you said they were wiped out by “the Arabs” in 641. That there are 210,000 of them around 1,370 years later tends to make your statement entirely false. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/197 "2011-10-21T14:34:17Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Pardon, but you said they were wiped out by “the Arabs” in 641. That there are 210,000 of them around 1,370 years later tends to make your statement entirely false. Going from majority population to a fraction of percent is being “wiped out”. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/198 "2011-10-21T15:13:43Z")
What would Saladin have considered himself to be, as a Muslim without what Europeans would consider a nationality? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/199 "2011-10-21T16:14:09Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What would Saladin have considered himself to be, as a Muslim without what Europeans would consider a nationality? He considered himself a Muslim. “Nationality” is a modern concept that arrived late to the Middle East. Until very recently, people in the Middle East identified themselves strictly by their religion. Modern day Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims may identify themselves as being Arabs, but their 19th Century ancestors didn’t and would have thought it was absurd to put them in the same group. As for Saladin, by today’s standards he was a Kurd, but referring to him as a Kurd would be like referring to Julius Caesar as an Italian. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/200 "2011-10-21T16:23:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In other words, “Arab” is a real term to him. He recognizes it as a distinct ethnic group, even if his definition of Arab is more limited than our definition of Arab. (He pretty much restricts it to the Bedouin.) You’re correct that I was a bit imprecise. Until recently, the only people in the Middle East who thought of themselves as “Arabs” and who were considered by the people of the Middle East to be Arabs were some Bedouin. Ibn Khaldun certainly did not identify himself as an Arab and would have been insulted by the suggestion that he was because of the connotations of the word. It would be a little like calling a modern American “a hick.” The best comparison I can think of is that Americans, Canadians and Australians all speak English, but don’t see themselves as being Englishmen. Similarly people from Senegal and the Ivory Coast don’t call themselves Frenchmen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=11)