# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/221 "2011-10-21T21:37:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > And the point and explanation why other conflicts do not persist in media is that you will not find for any other conflict such a degree of misrepresentation weather it’s South Sudan, Sri Lanka, Balkan wars. If you study whatever little is written and debated in media about these issues there is a common understanding and kind of consensus regarding the questions of peace, justice and what really is happening or has happened. Therefore, an average reader finds it calming and assuring that their opinion is, in general, the opinion that is promulgated within media – even the current Serbian ruling nomenclature is accepting of what transpired and why NATO bombed it). And it’s the case for all conflicts BUT this one. > > That’s why. This is simply not true. Taking the Balkans as one of your examples, the US and NATO turned a blind eye to Croatia’s military buildup in the face of the official embargo on arms to the entire region. Despite the embargo Croatia somehow got its hands on hundreds of former Warsaw Pact tanks and artillery pieces, with which they attacked with 150,000 men in 1995 in [Operation Storm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm). During the 84 hours that the offensive lasted, huge numbers of Serbian refugees were forced from the area, never to return. Croatia’s own estimate, almost certainly an underestimate is 90,000. The UN puts the numbers at 150,000-200,000 and Serbia claims 250,000. I can assure you Serbians are not accepting of this. It may be a little hard to work up sympathy for Serbians considering their own conduct during the war, but this doesn’t change the fact that up to a quarter million Serbs were ethnically cleansed in this event. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/222 "2011-10-21T21:55:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 210,000 is a pitiful remnant of the population that was there. Yes, they were destroyed. > > And no, I am not interchanging Arab and Muslim. I know exactly what I write. Educate yourself: [Muslim conquest of Persia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia) > > [Persecution of Zoroastrians - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Zoroastrians) Largely what **Ibn Warraq** said. You are still using Arab and Muslim interchangeably, calling a religion destroyed when it in fact still has 210,000 adherents 14 centuries after you claim its destruction, ignore that Zoroastrianism is an accepted religion in the Islamic Republic of Iran, and refer to this 210,000 as a pitiful remnant of the population that was there, as if all other Zoroastrians were put to the sword. Zoroastrian isn’t an ethnic group as you seem to think with your references to there being a pitiful remnant of the population. Zoroastrianism is a religion. You seem to have the same confusion here that you have with conflating Arab and Muslim. The present day population of Iran is predominantly Muslim, but they are not Arab. A part of that population that isn’t Muslim is; you guessed it, Zoroastrian. Zoroastrians aren’t the Ainu or Aboriginal Australians, its a religion, not an ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/223 "2011-10-21T23:30:47Z")
Does anyone care that Israeli Arabs [held a protest calling for more soldiers to be kidnapped](http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-arabs-remanded-after-arrest-at-demo-supporting-security-prisoners-1.391344)? Or does it matter? I can’t believe I’m still surprised that a thread about a kidnapped boy finally coming home after 5 years of being a POW is somehow making _still him the bad guy_. As if the psychological warfare waged by Hamas over this kid wasn’t cruel enough, Israel is somehow still the monster. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/224 "2011-10-21T23:56:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Does anyone care that Israeli Arabs [held a protest calling for more soldiers to be kidnapped](http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-arabs-remanded-after-arrest-at-demo-supporting-security-prisoners-1.391344)? > > Or does it matter? I can’t believe I’m still surprised that a thread about a kidnapped boy finally coming home after 5 years of being a POW is somehow making _still him the bad guy_. As if the psychological warfare waged by Hamas over this kid wasn’t cruel enough, Israel is somehow still the monster. Who is claiming that Gilad Shalit is the bad guy? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/225 "2011-10-22T00:13:26Z")
**newcomer** asserted that if you are a soldier in ‘occupied’ territory (so I guess Israel is OT? Schalit wasn’t in Gaza-) then you deserve it, bla bla, Israel created Hamas, bla bla. And now this thread has turned into a _Who Sucks More? Israelis or Arabs?_ thread. Ah, well. Bound to happen. But I thought my link was at least a tiny bit pertinent to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/226 "2011-10-22T00:17:30Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > And now this thread has turned into a _Who Sucks More? Israelis or Arabs?_ thread. Israelis suck more, Arabs suck better, let’s move on. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/227 "2011-10-22T00:19:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wikipedia is a really horrible source for just about anything relating to the Middle East. > > That said, you’ll notice even that article refers not to “the Arab conquest of Persia” but “the Muslim conquest of Persia”. > > I don’t know how often I have to keep repeating this, but people back then did not identify themselves based on our conceptions of what constitutes “an ethnic identity” but instead either by their religion or the city or district they were from. > > The people didn’t view themselves as Arabs anymore than Romans viewed themselves as Italians. > > You might as well refer to “the Italian conquest of Carthage.” Your semantics have no relation to the reality of the ethnicity of the populace in the area. Yes, ancient Jews did not call themselves “Jews” (hell, most of the Jews in the world don’t call themselves “Jews” now) but they were Jews, both back then and now. Same with Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/228 "2011-10-22T00:21:44Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Zoroastrian isn’t an ethnic group as you seem to think with your references to there being a pitiful remnant of the population. Zoroastrianism is a religion. And that religious population was wiped out by Arab conquest. > [@](#): > > You seem to have the same confusion here that you have with conflating Arab and Muslim. The present day population of Iran is predominantly Muslim, but they are not Arab. What in the world does present population of Iran have to do with the fact that it was Arabs that conquered the area and wiped out Zoroastrians? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/229 "2011-10-22T01:13:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your semantics have no relation to the reality of the ethnicity of the populace in the area. Yes, ancient Jews did not call themselves “Jews” (hell, most of the Jews in the world don’t call themselves “Jews” now) but they were Jews, both back then and now. Same with Arabs. So then you feel that we should refer to Julius Caesar as “an Italian ruler” and when referring to the ancient Gauls refer to them as “Frenchmen”. The people you’re referring to didn’t consider themselves "Arabs"but called themselves “Muslims”. It’s not a matter of “semantics” it’s how they viewed themselves. As for the ancient Hebrews, obviously they didn’t call themselves “Jews” but the called themselves the Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent. Finally, you’re using the term “ethnic group” to describe a people who lived long before Europeans invented the concept. Not everyone fits into the European concept of ethnicity so don’t try and shove them into it. Call them Muslims. It’s what they were and how they identified themselves. Also, you used the term “Arab” to describe the Muslims who invaded China and India which makes absolutely know sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/230 "2011-10-22T01:22:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And that religious population was wiped out by Arab conquest. > What in the world does present population of Iran have to do with the fact that it was Arabs that conquered the area and wiped out Zoroastrians? You keep saying they were “wiped out” implying that they were slaughtered the way Christians slaughtered pagans or the Europeans slaughtered the Native Americans, but that’s just not true. They were assimilated and most converted but, with rare exceptions, they weren’t converted by the sword. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/231 "2011-10-22T01:47:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you feel that we should refer to Julius Caesar as “an Italian ruler” and when referring to the ancient Gauls refer to them as “Frenchmen”. > > The people you’re referring to didn’t consider themselves "Arabs"but called themselves “Muslims”. > > It’s not a matter of “semantics” it’s how they viewed themselves. But they were still Arabs. > [@](#): > > As for the ancient Hebrews, obviously they didn’t call themselves “Jews” but the called themselves the Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent. No. “Ivri” (which is what they called themselves) and “yehudi” (which is what Jews call themselves in Hebrew today) are not equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/232 "2011-10-22T01:48:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You keep saying they were “wiped out” implying that they were slaughtered the way Christians slaughtered pagans or the Europeans slaughtered the Native Americans, but that’s just not true. The implication is yours. I use very exact terms. If you choose to read into them something else that’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/233 "2011-10-22T02:27:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The implication is yours. I use very exact terms. If you choose to read into them something else that’s your problem. So then what are you trying to say. What do you mean when you say “wiped out”? Please explain to me how my ancestors were “wiped out” yet I’m still here. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/234 "2011-10-22T02:28:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But they were still Arabs. Do you consider Barack Obama an Englishman? He does after all speak English and his ancestors were English. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/235 "2011-10-22T02:30:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then what are you trying to say. > > What do you mean when you say “wiped out”? > > Please explain to me how my ancestors were “wiped out” yet I’m still here. Are you a Zoroastrian? No? There you are. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/236 "2011-10-22T02:33:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. “Ivri” (which is what they called themselves) and “yehudi” (which is what Jews call themselves in Hebrew today) are not equivalent. Ok, then please explain to me the difference between “Ivri” and “Yehudi”. Can one be an “Ivri” without being a “Yehudi” because it’s very possible to be an “Arab” without being a “Muslim” and very possible to be a “Muslim” without being an Arab. Only about 10% of all Muslims are Arabs and in the US 70% of all Arabs are Christians. Similarly, in Lebanon around 50% of all Arabs are Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/237 "2011-10-22T02:34:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Are you a Zoroastrian? No? There you are. I’m afraid you haven’t answered my question, so I’d like to hear it. What do you mean when you said “wiped out”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/238 "2011-10-22T02:41:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, then please explain to me the difference between “Ivri” and “Yehudi”. > > Can one be an “Ivri” without being a “Yehudi” Yes. “Yehudi” comes from “Yehuda” - the only tribe of the 12 that is left, supposedly (although some count the Falashas as being from a different tribe and some count Indian Jews as being from another one). “Ivri” were all the Jews, all the 12 tribes. They were also called “Bnei Yisrael”. In recent (comparatively) usage “Am Yisrael” is also used to describe the community of all Jews. > [@](#): > > because it’s very possible to be an “Arab” without being a “Muslim” and very possible to be a “Muslim” without being an Arab. Let’s say you’re an Arab. Your father is an Arab. His father was an Arab. Count backwards. At what point is one of the fathers NOT an Arab? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/239 "2011-10-22T02:42:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m afraid you haven’t answered my question, so I’d like to hear it. > > What do you mean when you said “wiped out”. Zoroastrians were the majority population of the area. Now there is a pitiful remnant left. That’s what I mean when I say “wiped out”. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/240 "2011-10-22T02:45:18Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > This is simply not true. Taking the Balkans as one of your examples, the US and NATO turned a blind eye to Croatia’s military buildup in the face of the official embargo on arms to the entire region. Despite the embargo Croatia somehow got its hands on hundreds of former Warsaw Pact tanks and artillery pieces, with which they attacked with 150,000 men in 1995 in [Operation Storm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm). During the 84 hours that the offensive lasted, huge numbers of Serbian refugees were forced from the area, never to return. Croatia’s own estimate, almost certainly an underestimate is 90,000. The UN puts the numbers at 150,000-200,000 and Serbia claims 250,000. I can assure you Serbians are not accepting of this. It may be a little hard to work up sympathy for Serbians considering their own conduct during the war, but this doesn’t change the fact that up to a quarter million Serbs were ethnically cleansed in this event. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=13)