# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/281 "2011-10-22T16:30:53Z")
Well, they were taking over the country, and they didn’t do it in a very nice way. But after Persia was conquered and resistance was put to an end, while state support for Zoroastrianism was removed, there wasn’t immediately much persecution. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/282 "2011-10-22T16:35:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, they were taking over the country, and they didn’t do it in a very nice way. But after Persia was conquered and resistance was put to an end, while state support for Zoroastrianism was removed, there wasn’t immediately much persecution. Same link: Destruction of Fire Temples & Libraries. Murder of Priests The destruction of Zoroastrian places of worship started during the conquest campaign. The Encyclopaedia of Islam (R. Hillenbrand, P. J. Bearman, C.E. Bosworth, editors) notes under Masdjids in the Central Islamic Lands that those fire temples that were not destroyed were converted into mosques. In Istakhr and Bukhara, the Chahar Taqi Zoroastrian temples with their four arched openings were turned into mosques by setting a mihrab (prayer niche) on the place of the arch facing (and therefore nearest) to the qibla (the direction of Mecca). According to a BBC article, “Many libraries were burnt and much cultural heritage was lost.” Further, thousands of Zoroastrian priests were executed, hundreds of temples destroyed, religious texts burnt, and the use of the ancient Avestan as well as Persian languages was prohibited [cf. Edward Granville Browne, A year Amongst the Persians (1893)] Humiliation as Untouchables Prof. John Hinnells writes that Zoroastrians were identified as ‘najis’ and therefore impure and a source of contamination to Muslims. This label made the Zoroastrians untouchables and unfit to live alongside Muslims. As a further consequence, this meant Zoroastrians could be forced to leave the cities and were subject to all manner of restrictions in the presence of Muslims in all spheres of life. Under the Umayyads (661-750 CE) The Umayyads completed the Arab conquest of Iran. Yazid-ibn-Mohalleb, a Umayyad general lead an expedition to subdue the province of Mazandaran. As the Arabs won battle after battle, the general ordered that all captives to be hanged on both sides of the road leading to its capital. When the provincial capital was subdued, he took 6,000 of its Zoroastrian residents as slaves and ordered the massacre of the remaining 12,000 residents. In Gorgan, he ordered that the watermills be run for three days by draining the blood of its victims. He is reputed to have mixed the bread flour produced with the blood of his victims, feeding the bread to his army and partaking of the meal himself. The Umayyads made Arabic the official language of of Iran, and while the newly converted Iranians accepted the new language as their own and adopting the Arab culture while being ashamed of their own, the Zoroastrians despised Arabic as the language of their Muslim conquerors. This in turn meant that the Zoroastrians were excluded from all government positions. The language issue became redundant since in 741 CE, the Umayyads decreed that all non-Muslims would be excluded from governmental positions. The weight of religious oppression increased steadily and an Arab governor appointed a commissioner to supervise the destruction of fire temples throughout Iran, regardless of treaty and other agreements. One of the Umayyad Caliphs was quoted saying, “Milk the Persians and once their milk dries, suck their blood.” Under the Abbasids (752 - 833 CE) The Abbasids continued and added to the repressive measures employed by the Umayyads. Zoroastrian temples were searched out and destroyed or converted to mosques. The status of Zoroastrians was changed from dhimmi to kafirs meaning non-believers. Zoroastrians were labelled as fire-worshippers and polytheists. The treatment of Zoroastrians as najis (unclean and polluting) grew and Zoroastrians were denied access to common public facilities including bathhouses. Abdollah-ibn-Tahir, Abbasid Governor of Khorasan, banned publication of Persian, that is Pahlavi books and decreed and all Zoroastrians were required to bring their religious books for a ritual burning, failure to comply being execution. It was during this period that many Pahlavi works were lost forever. It was during the 9th century CE that Zoroastrians became a minority throughout Iran. =========================== That’s not “much persecution”? I shudder to think what “much persecution” is then. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/283 "2011-10-22T16:40:36Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Dont be so harsh on yourself. I’m hardly an expert on the situation and don’t speak either Hebrew or Arabic, but I don’t think anyone would seriously suggest I have a “superficial” view of the Middle East, particularly people insisting the Arabs are more “warlike” than westerners. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/284 "2011-10-22T16:49:21Z")
What a shock, someone who has issues with Muslims and Arabs found an anti-Muslim website. I’m not sure why that website is considered anymore reliable than say Tall Armenian Tale or similar websites. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/285 "2011-10-22T16:53:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What a shock, someone who has issues with Muslims and Arabs found an anti-Muslim website. > > I’m not sure why that website is considered anymore reliable than say Tall Armenian Tale or similar websites. You’re welcome to counter with a web site that will show that the conquering Arabs treated the Zoroastrians with respect and admiration. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/286 "2011-10-22T19:54:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No we’re not. > > When someone insists they’re not an Arab and would be insulted by being called an Arab they shouldn’t be viewed as one. > > Moreover his distinctions doesn’t help understanding the Middle East because it would make us argue that people who saw themselves as the same(Muslims who spoke Arabic and those who didn’t) and part of the same group weren’t. > > As far as they were concerned, they identified themselves as members of the Ummah(Muslim community) along with non-Arabic speakers, but based on his views, the Kurdish speaking Muslims, such as Saladin, and the Arabic speaking Muslims, whom he led, weren’t part of the same group and should be primarily viewed by a group identity they didn’t believe in. All right, now I see the argument. I think the issue is that while most of us know there’s a difference between “Arab” and “Muslim”, it’s not always so clear when we use those words (at least in the US). For me, as a geography teacher, “Arab” may mean “Arab region” or “political affiliation”. There used to be Arab Jews, but not any more because that kind of designation just isn’t allowed. So I think it’s fair to say that the distinctions between 19th and 20th C Arabs are nuanced and sometimes complicated, while it is certainly appropriate to say “Arabs of the 8th C” isn’t always a falsehood (depending on the context). I try to use phrases like “Arab world” when talking about a geographical location and “Arab” when referencing a political aspect, eg, Arab League nations or some such. But I’m not always careful enough and I don’t think many are. Aren’t you being a little hard on **Terr**? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe we have different definitions of “Arab”. Is it even the same word in English and Farsi? > > Generally, Americans and Europeans use “Arab” to describe someone from the geographic expression of the “Arab Peninsula”. > > I would be annoyed if someone called me a “Yankee”, because I hail from the Southern USA. I’ve learned to live with it. While most of us are willing to consider Iranians as Indo European, things might be easier for you in dealing with us if you do, too. This. And in my head, I tend to think of Iranians -and even Lebanese I know in the U.S. of more _Persian_, even if Lebanese aren’t Persian. (Maybe it’s the food. :D) And of course a Christian from Lebanon isn’t in the same ethnic/tribal/religious/political category as a Muslim and so forth. > [@Alessan](#): > > I have to say, while I knew this thread would go off the rails, I didn’t expect it to go \*this \*way. Kudos for the originality. **Ibn** is always good for a history lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/287 "2011-10-22T19:59:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The initial conquerors and, yes, persecutors, were Sa’ad ibn Abi Waqqas and Khalid ibn al-Walid and their armies. All Arabs. But is it fair to say that Americans treated Indians poorly in the 1600 and 1700s (before there was an America) when it was in fact different colonialist groups - mostly French, Spanish, & English - all competing European nations? Pale skin and an affinity for Jesus links those groups, but it’s a little more complicated than that. Unfortunately, a couple hundred years later, it’s “Whites” or “Europeans” without much distinction unless you’re a history teacher. I also hear a lot of things attributed to ‘early Americans’ post 1776 even when a national identity was still weak and people’s loyalty was typically regulated to immediate geographical region. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/288 "2011-10-22T20:42:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s not “much persecution”? I shudder to think what “much persecution” is then. I’m not really seeing much religious persecution by the Ummayads in that snippet. There’s a lot of “You’re a conquered place, so we’ll put down rebellions, milk you economically, and force you to speak our language”, and some usurpation of temples, but that’s pretty much it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/289 "2011-10-22T20:52:44Z")
Best Israel-thread-tangent ever. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/290 "2011-10-24T14:34:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Best Israel-thread-tangent ever. Heh true. 😃 To jump into the fray - what I get from **Ibn** ’s posts is that the concept of “arab-ness” as being _the_ significant signifier of self-identity is a creation of the diffusion of European notions of ethnic nationalism, often misleadingly read into historical accounts about people who had very different notions of what constituted the important aspect of self-identity. Some facts somewhat complicate the debate: (1) Of course, most of the intitial followers of the Prophet spoke Arabic and the Koran was written in Arabic, making the Arabic language highly presigious as a lingua francia throughout the Muslim world and making connections to these initial followers highly presigious; (2) The actual numbers of Arabic-speakers were, compared with the folks they conquored, relatively few; (3) The areas they conquored were by and large of much higher levels of culture and civilization, and very soon after the conquest the centre of the Muslim world shifted out of the homeland of the Arabic-speakers and into first Syria then what is now Iraq; (4) The Arabian penninsula reverted back into a backwater after this (enriched somewhat by the Hadj pilgrims). The Arabic-speaking peoples of the Arabian penninsula went back to doing what they had always been doing - running caravans to incense-growing Yemen, raising camels, fleecing pilgrims ( 😃 ); (5) As a culture, Islam cared little for genetics, what mattered was submission; (6) Due to the bizzare tax structure initially imposed by the conquorers, it was ver advantageous to convert to Islam - you basically stopped paying taxes; … all of which lead to a vast number of people having absolutely no _genetic_ link to the Arab-speaking warriors of the Arabian penninsula adopting Islam as a religion, Arabic as a language (at least of scholarship), and finding or inventing ties to heroic “Arab” ancestors who knew Mohammed personally and participated in the conquest. They may not have considered themselves as “Arabs”. Those would be, as before, the folks actually living in the Arabian penninsula, moreover identified with a certain lifestyle as practiced by such folks. Far more significant than (probably fictional) noble “Arab” ancestors was their local and religious affiliation. This was of course to change in the 19th and 20th centuries. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/291 "2011-10-24T14:46:41Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > This is simply not true. Taking the Balkans as one of your examples, the US and NATO turned a blind eye to Croatia’s military buildup in the face of the official embargo on arms to the entire region. Despite the embargo Croatia somehow got its hands on hundreds of former Warsaw Pact tanks and artillery pieces, with which they attacked with 150,000 men in 1995 in [Operation Storm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm). During the 84 hours that the offensive lasted, huge numbers of Serbian refugees were forced from the area, never to return. Croatia’s own estimate, almost certainly an underestimate is 90,000. The UN puts the numbers at 150,000-200,000 and Serbia claims 250,000. I can assure you Serbians are not accepting of this. It may be a little hard to work up sympathy for Serbians considering their own conduct during the war, but this doesn’t change the fact that up to a quarter million Serbs were ethnically cleansed in this event. Operation Storm happened about 15 years ago. Maybe you did not get updates but just two points: two Croatian army generals were convicted in ICTY in Hague for exactly crimes committed during Operation Storm and displaced Croatian Serbs are returning and more than half of them are back home as it was expected that certain amount will integrate in areas in Bosnia from where Bosnian Croats and Bosnians were expelled. That is light years advance over any progress and sense of justice in Israel-Palestinian conflict and more so none of the international power brokers (US, EU) and institutions (UN, ICTY) is actively engaged in misrepresenting the case. There is no UN official who, for example, first accuses Israel of war crimes and then on a second “attempt” establishes that while a lot of civilians did die, it does not amount to a war crime. That’s not just laughable but morally bankrupt reversal that no sane person can accept and that was the point of my post. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/292 "2011-10-24T18:14:05Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Operation Storm happened about 15 years ago. Maybe you did not get updates but just two points: two Croatian army generals were convicted in ICTY in Hague for exactly crimes committed during Operation Storm and displaced Croatian Serbs are returning and more than half of them are back home as it was expected that certain amount will integrate in areas in Bosnia from where Bosnian Croats and Bosnians were expelled. It’s rather odd for you to gripe at this having occurred 15 years ago seeing as how it is your example, not mine. Let’s see how this stands up to your theory that “a common understanding and kind of consensus regarding the questions of peace, justice and what really is happening or has happened” here and that the Serbs are “accepting of what transpired and why NATO bombed it.” Let’s see, the ICTY told a pair of generals what naughty people they were and acquitted a third. With the common understanding of justice and peace, the Croats applauded this just like the Serbs are glad that NATO bombed them, right? Hmm, it seems after [Ante Gotovina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Gotovina) was finally caught in the Canary Islands after he’d spent years at large in Croatia, the Croatian people weren’t so happy about the questions of justice and peace. > [@](#): > > In Croatia’s capital Zagreb, thousands gathered to watch the sentence being given out live on large screens and loudly protested the decision.[56] Croatian prime minister Jadranka Kosor stated that the idea of a “joint criminal enterprise” was “unacceptable” as many Croatians feel it was part of their war for independence.[56] War veterans staged a march in the Croatian capital in protest.[57] About 10,000 showed up to the march, chanting slogans against the Kosor-led government and the EU as protesters removed and ripped apart the European Union flag from a flagpole at the main square, replacing it with the Croatian flag.[58] > > A poll done immediately after the verdict showed that 95.4% of Croatians felt that the judgment against Gotovina was unjust, and 88% still saw him as a hero. So much for the two generals. How about the half of the ethnically cleansed Serbs who have returned and the other half that you think are happy with living in their new homes? [Doesn’t look like either is true.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm) > [@](#): > > Approximately 300,000 Croatian Serbs were displaced during the entire war, only a third of which (or about 117,000) are officially registered as having returned as of 2005. According to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 200,000 Croatian refugees, mostly Croatian Serbs, are still displaced in neighboring countries and elsewhere. Many Croatian Serbs cannot return because they have lost their tenancy rights and under threats of intimidation. Croatian Serbs continue to be the victim of discrimination in access to employment and with regard to other economic and social rights. Some cases of violence and harassment against Croatian Serbs continue to be reported.[76] Some of the Croatian Serbs will not return out of fear of being charged for war crimes, as the Croatian police has secret war crime suspect lists; Croatia passed an Amnesty law for anyone who had not taken an active part in the war, but many do not know if they are on amnesty list or not because amnesty rules are not clear enough.[77][78] The return of refugees is further complicated by the fact that many Croats and Bosniaks (some expelled from Bosnia) have taken residence in their vacated houses. Another reason for the non-return of refugees is the fact that areas that were under Croatian Serb control during the 1991-95 period were economically ruined (unemployment in RSK was 92%). Since that time, Croatia has started a series of projects aimed at rebuilding these areas and jump-starting the economy (including special tax exemptions), but unemployment is still high. Oddly, the Balkans remains a morass of grudges going back a millennia, and Serbia doesn’t celebrate being bombed by NATO. Some think that NATO not only allowed the Croats to launch Operation Storm but in fact encouraged it to happen; both by allowing the military build up in the face of the embargo and as leverage to force Serbia into the Dayton negotiations. > [@](#): > > That is light years advance over any progress and sense of justice in Israel-Palestinian conflict and more so none of the international power brokers (US, EU) and institutions (UN, ICTY) is actively engaged in misrepresenting the case. There is no UN official who, for example, first accuses Israel of war crimes and then on a second “attempt” establishes that while a lot of civilians did die, it does not amount to a war crime. That’s not just laughable but morally bankrupt reversal that no sane person can accept and that was the point of my post. Yes, no double dealing by the power brokers or misrepresentation of the case at all. Nobody at all on the Serbian side thinks NATO was behind the Croat actions, or thinks NATO was taking sides when it bombed them. On the Croat side, everyone agrees that the token two generals the ICTY finally got its hands on were bad people and the 18 year sentences they got makes up for ethnically cleansing a quarter million people. Truly, the Israel-Palestine conflict is unique in human history because “there is a common understanding and kind of consensus regarding the questions of peace, justice and what really is happening or has happened” "for all conflicts BUT this one.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/293 "2011-10-26T12:54:26Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > First and foremost, the influence and power held by Jewish community If that were true, one would expect that the coverage would generally be pro-Israel or at least neutral. However there is lots and lots of anti-Israel coverage in the US. For example, the case of [Tuvia Grossman.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvia_Grossman) > [@](#): > > And the point and explanation why other conflicts do not persist in media is that you will not find for any other conflict such a degree of misrepresentation Can you give 3 examples of “misrepresentation” which you are referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/294 "2011-11-06T22:27:58Z")
Just as a quick update on the subject, there was an attempted kidnapping outside my daughter’s base last week. Her commander went over it in quite a bit of detail with her unit. For those who care, these soldiers are not occupying anything other than time and space, since her base is well within the Green Line. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/295 "2011-11-06T22:45:40Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Just as a quick update on the subject, there was an attempted kidnapping outside my daughter’s base last week. Her commander went over it in quite a bit of detail with her unit. > > For those who care, these soldiers are not occupying anything other than time and space, since her base is well within the Green Line. Question: are there security checks going INTO Gaza or the West Bank? How were these kidnappers planning on getting out of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/296 "2011-11-07T02:29:19Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Truly, the Israel-Palestine conflict is unique in human history because “there is a common understanding and kind of consensus regarding the questions of peace, justice and what really is happening or has happened” "for all conflicts BUT this one.” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/QosB-_WDPTY/hqdefault.jpg "Former US President explains how Israel has put Palestinians in open air prisons on their land") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QosB-_WDPTY) You find me ANYWHERE on EARTH where one nation does this kind of immoral and criminal act to another and you win. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/297 "2011-11-07T02:46:06Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > […]criminal act[…] You should learn about international law before you claim that things violate it. [ > [@](#): > > Art. 42. The internment or placing in assigned residence of protected persons may be ordered only if the security of the Detaining Power makes it absolutely necessary. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5)) Not that the word of a proven liar like Jimmy Carter is a basis for political worldviews, in any case. It’s interesting that he can’t stop lying, even in the video, like when he claims that the wall is “all built on Palestinian land” (it isn’t), implies that it’s all a wall (it isn’t), claims that Israel controls Egypt’s border crossing with Gaza (it doesn’t). So other than the fact that you’re wrong on basic international law and Jimmy Carter finds it near impossible to talk about Israel without lying, yes, you’ve got a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/298 "2011-11-07T04:20:23Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QosB-\_WDPTY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QosB-_WDPTY) > > You find me ANYWHERE on EARTH where one nation does this kind of immoral and criminal act to another and you win. :rolleyes: I thought the 1/4 million ethnically cleansed Serbs that you are unable to dispute already did that. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/299 "2011-11-07T11:32:32Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QosB-\_WDPTY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QosB-_WDPTY) > > You find me ANYWHERE on EARTH where one nation does this kind of immoral and criminal act to another and you win. Despite Carter’s lies, everyone knows that Egypt controls the southern entrance to Gaza. So if Gaza is a “prison,” Egypt is a jailer and is behaving just as immorally and criminally as Israel. What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/300 "2011-11-07T12:52:03Z")
Here’s a quote from Carter: > [@](#): > > And of course there’s a complete wall that Israelis have built all around Gaza. And there are only two openings in it. One is here that goes into Israel and the other one is here that goes into the Sinai. But Israel controls both openings and mostly the openings are closed. Interestingly, he uses the word “Sinai.” Given that he helped to negotiate the withdrawal of Israel from the Sinai, he should know perfectly well what country controls the Sinai. Why doesn’t he mention it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=16)