# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/41 "2011-10-17T14:13:32Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > At least the pro-Palestinian supporters are acknowledging that perhaps Israel locking up terrorists isn’t a bad idea after all. Right after the idea of removing the conditions that force people to resort to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/42 "2011-10-17T15:11:21Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Right after the idea of removing the conditions that force people to resort to violence. The nagging thought that Israel might, even briefly, hold the moral high ground - that eats away at you, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/43 "2011-10-17T15:34:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The nagging thought that Israel might, even briefly, hold the moral high ground - that eats away at you, doesn’t it? No, not really. What bothers me is that people forget how it all came about that an occupying force holds a “moral high ground”. And then, they are all in your face about it. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/44 "2011-10-17T20:38:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The nagging thought that Israel might, even briefly, hold the moral high ground - that eats away at you, doesn’t it? Well, they built an apartment building on top of it. I don’t know if that counts, though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/45 "2011-10-18T04:44:36Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Right after the idea of removing the conditions that force people to resort to violence. There’s nothing but your own twisted mind that forces you to blow up a pizzeria. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/46 "2011-10-18T06:48:31Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Their presence in Israel is likely to be civilizing to the place. It has been brought to my attention that you meant the Hamas members serving life sentences gir, amongst other thins, murdering Jewish civilians. Now, some have suggested you’re only motivated by hatred of “the natives” but I think they’re being unfair. I’m sure you’re applalled by the way Palestinians labeled “Amil” are treated and I’m sure you can express your opinions on the subject. I’m also sure you know what that means since any ten year old Israeli or Palestinian would know as would anyone knowledgeable about the conflict. So, please tell us how you feel, because I’d love to shove it in the face of those that doubt you and if you can’t, I’d have to conclude you weren’t motivated by concern for the Palestinians but by resentment and hatred of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/47 "2011-10-18T06:51:45Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Right after the idea of removing the conditions that force people to resort to violence. > [@newcomer](#): > > What bothers me is that people forget how it all came about Do I mention the Arab Riots or just go straight to pointing out the irony? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/48 "2011-10-18T09:47:51Z")
I was reading the other day about one of the Arab prisoners who is to be released, Mohamed Zakout. Apparently he was a construction worker in Tel Aviv back in the 80s. On one Purim, he got upset that the Jews were happy (since Purim is a happy holiday). He snuck up behind an elderly Jew who was on his way home from bringing gifts to poor people. He literally backstabbed this old man to death. Obviously it’s an upsetting story, but I tell it so that **newcomer** ’s words can be seen in context. > [@](#): > > What bothers me is that people forget how it all came about that an occupying force holds a “moral high ground”. > [@](#): > > the conditions that force people to resort to violence. What do I take from this? (1) According to Israel’s detractors, even Tel Aviv is “occupied territory.” (2) According to Israel’s detractors, all Arab violence against Jews in or about Israel is completely legitimate; completely the fault of the Jews; and Arabs bear no moral responsibility for it. (3) According to Israel’s detractors, defensive steps taken by the Jews which burden Arabs in any way are illegitimate and justify further violence against the Jews. Are my conclusions really so much of a leap? Does **newcomer** really believe these things? And are his views representative of Israel’s enemies? I think that the answer is no, yes, and yes. I point these things out not to show that **newcomer** ’s views are unfair or twisted, but to remind fellow Zionists that this is the worldview of the folks with whom Israel is trying to make peace. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/49 "2011-10-18T10:22:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > According to today’s papers, 79% of the Israeli public supports the deal. That’s pretty overwhelming. Then 79% of the Israeli public are idiots. These people have already murdered hundreds of innocent people. How many more will die because Israel is letting them go at the behest of the terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/50 "2011-10-18T10:36:54Z")
Idiots, maybe - but at least today, we’re noble idiots. More death will always come, but how often does an entire nation get to feel good about themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/51 "2011-10-18T10:56:54Z")
I’m one of the 21% that does not support the deal. The Israeli government should never have broken their rule to never negotiate with terrorists. I have a daughter in the IDF, who is now in more danger. Why? Because Hamas knows that kidnapping pays. Release of convicted terrorists before they have served their full sentences seems like an easy and tempting way of defusing blackmail situations in which innocent people may lose their lives. But its utility is momentary at best. Prisoner releases only embolden terrorists by giving them the feeling that even if they are caught their punishment will be brief. Worse, by leading terrorists to think such demands are likely to be met, they encourage precisely the kind of terrorist blackmail which they are supposed to diffuse….only the most unrelenting refusal to ever give in to such blackmail can prevent most such situations from arising. --Benjamin Netanyahu ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/52 "2011-10-18T11:08:21Z")
How does your daughter feel about it? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/53 "2011-10-18T11:49:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Idiots, maybe - but at least today, we’re noble idiots. More death will always come, but how often does an entire nation get to feel good about themselves? I disagree, but as I tried to say upthread, you are there and know more than I. I’m glad he is free, and offer my congratulations. As an aside, how horrible to be murdered on Purim while celebrating Jews having escaped death. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/54 "2011-10-18T13:03:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …Now, some have suggested you’re only motivated by hatred of “the natives” … Really? Who, where? That’s terrible. > [@](#): > > …I’d **have to conclude** you weren’t motivated by concern for the Palestinians but by resentment and hatred of Jews. _emphasis added_ No-one even mentioned ‘Jews’. Except you and I’ve cautioned you about this tendency before. Further, I am sorry to read your apprehension is confined in the manner described, Perhaps today’s liberties are a happy sign. In that spirit I recommend to you reading on [the ‘forced choice’ question](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). Toodle pip. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/55 "2011-10-18T13:20:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How does your daughter feel about it? I know she’s happy, but I don’t know if there’s anything she thinks besides that. I’ll have to wait until she gets home. She’s off for Chol Hamoed, and she and Mrs. SMM were off to Jerusalem before I got home from services this morning. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/56 "2011-10-18T13:30:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I was reading the other day about one of the Arab prisoners who is to be released, Mohamed Zakout. Apparently he was a construction worker in Tel Aviv back in the 80s. On one Purim, he got upset that the Jews were happy (since Purim is a happy holiday). He snuck up behind an elderly Jew who was on his way home from bringing gifts to poor people. He literally backstabbed this old man to death. > > Obviously it’s an upsetting story, but I tell it so that **newcomer** ’s words can be seen in context. It’s plain and simple - murder 1st degree. Death penalty or life in prison. Why in hell would they release a guy like that?! On the other hand, just the idea that you would put this out as an example shows how little you pay attention to what’s really going on. However, your well thought out misdirection played very well. And that of Israeli government. You and I know that there are hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jail for nothing. For you to bring this case shows basic ignorance of what I’m saying. For cases like this you should go back to Netanyahu. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/57 "2011-10-18T13:32:44Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Are my conclusions really so much of a leap? Does **newcomer** really believe these things? And are his views representative of Israel’s enemies? I think that the answer is no, yes, and yes. I think you should apologize. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/58 "2011-10-18T13:39:01Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > It’s plain and simple - murder 1st degree. Death penalty or life in prison. Why in hell would they release a guy like that?! I recall several years ago that the Israelis said that no one with “blood on their hands” would be released in such exchanges. Do you think they have changed their idea, or that the story is exaggerated? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/59 "2011-10-18T13:52:39Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I recall several years ago that the Israelis said that no one with “blood on their hands” would be released in such exchanges. Do you think they have changed their idea, or that the story is exaggerated? I think that notion of justice down there has lost any meaning. To debate the swap expecting to satisfy the notion of justice as it exists outside of that place is ludicrous. However, if I put my cynical glasses on – as those are the only ones you can safely use – I could point out that this is again Israeli Government enabling Hamas over Fatah. Which is fitting as they created them in the first place, it’s only fair for them to provide nurture. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/60 "2011-10-18T14:21:15Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > You and I know that there are hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jail for nothing. For you to bring this case shows basic ignorance of what I’m saying. For cases like this you should go back to Netanyahu. Hey, we’re not the U.S. Every person in an Israeli prison, civil or military, received an open trial with a lawyer and everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=4)