# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/101 "2011-10-19T19:48:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t know how they define it. Lol, I suspect that the definition of “political prisoner” depends on whether or not the imprisoning authority happens to be Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/102 "2011-10-19T19:56:14Z")
Maybe. I mean, the guy did kill for a political reason…it’s not like the soldier stole his girl or something. So, if you want to define it that way, he, and pretty much all terrorists are “political prisoners”. I think problem is that the term “political prisoner” tends to carry with it a connotation that the person was unjustly imprisoned, which in this guy’s case, I don’t think he was. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/103 "2011-10-19T20:19:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe. I mean, the guy did kill for a political reason… Well so did Charles Manson and he’s been in jail for a lot longer than Barghouti. > [@](#): > > I think problem is that the term “political prisoner” tends to carry with it a connotation that the person was unjustly imprisoned, which in this guy’s case, I don’t think he was. To me, “political prisoner” means that the individual is being held because of his views or because of anti-government activities which would otherwise be lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/104 "2011-10-19T20:20:24Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I think that notion of justice down there has lost any meaning. Here in the U.S., blowing up something gets you the chair or life in prison. Israel is really quite easy on career criminals sometimes. For shame. :o > [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > It would be easy for me to say that we should never negotiate with terrorists, even if, God forbid, it were my daughter. That’s not to say I have not thought about it a great deal. Obviously, any person in a green uniform here is a target. I worry every time she walks out the door wearing her uniform. > > I know what my ideals are. Would I be able to stick to them if this situation ever occurred? Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not sure anyone would know. I sincerely mean it when I say I hope you never have to think about it and that your children will always be safe. > [@Eve](#): > > If the Israeli soldier had committed suicide rather than be released as part of this deal, would he be a hero or a fool? I assume he was on some kind of suicide watch. After all, he does Hamas no good dead, right? I do know that suicide is against Jewish law, but martyrdom is a mixed bag. \ ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/105 "2011-10-19T20:21:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well so did Charles Manson and he’s been in jail for a lot longer than Barghouti. > > To me, “political prisoner” means that the individual is being held because of his views or because of anti-government activities which would otherwise be lawful. Was this gentleman a citizen of Israel? How could have ‘political prisoner’ status if he his to be a citizen of a future Palestinian state? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/106 "2011-10-19T20:37:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, I suspect that the definition of “political prisoner” depends on whether or not the imprisoning authority happens to be Israel. Don’t think so. “Political prisonner” doesn’t imply that there wasn’t a crime commited, only that the crime was politically motivated. For instance arrested members of the IRA in the UK or of the members of extreme left terrorist groups from the 70s in various European countries (Red Brigades in Italy, “Action Directe” in France, etc…) were commonly refered to as “political prisonners”, and relatively commonly had unoficially a different treatment in jail than ordinary criminals (physically set apart, more access to information, etc..), despite clearly having blood on their hands. Of course, when people hear “political prisonner” they think of some brave advocate of freedom unjustly jailed by a backward dictator, but those words have been used (and I assume are still used) in a more general sense. By the way, count me as another poster who opposes giving in the demands of hostage takers. Especially on such a scale! Also, I dislike the “what if you were the mother of” questions. What if you were the mother of one of the Palestinian freed? What if you were the mother of a murdered child? What if you were the mother of the possibly innocent man in the death row? What if you were the hostage yourself? Yes, if you happen to be the mother of whoever is involved in whatever high risk situation, you’d be ready to give anything to get you child back to safety, regardless of the side you’d end up on whatever issue. It’s a pointless question that doesn’t prove anything. As a previous poster stated, if I were an hostage, I might beg for the release of 2000 child murderers just to be set free. Doesn’t make my opinion that such exchanges are a fool’s game any less valid. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/107 "2011-10-19T20:42:32Z")
But you can’t be a political prisoner if you’re not a member of that country! I mean, if I blew up shit in France, I wouldn’t be a political prisoner. And Hamas leaders are not political prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/108 "2011-10-19T20:52:24Z")
The problem is confusion between the terms “political prisioner” and “prisoner of concience”. Some people equate these two and some, such as AI, distinguish between 'em. In the AI definition, "political prisoner’ is simply someone whose actions were motivated for a political purpose. They may of course still be a vicious criminal - robbing, raping or killing - but the motives of their crimes, if any, are political. In contrast, a “prisoner of concience” is someone who has been imprisioned for non-violent expressions of their beliefs (exluding those who have conspired with a foreign country to overthrow their government). The former may be quite justly rotting in jail (or may not be, depending of course on the facts); the latter are, by definition, not justly imprisioned. The problems arise when the former is said but the latter is meant; the (wrong) impression is that anyone who is a “political prisioner” is, as such, unjustly imprisioned. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/109 "2011-10-19T21:01:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Don’t think so. “Political prisonner” doesn’t imply that there wasn’t a crime commited, only that the crime was politically motivated. So of course you agree, then, that the Guiness Book of World Records was incorrect when it asserted that Bhargouti was the longest-running political prisoner? After all, Charles Manson’s crimes were politically motivated (he wanted to start a race war) and he was arrested in 1969. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/110 "2011-10-20T02:13:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The problem is confusion between the terms “political prisioner” and “prisoner of concience”. Possibly, but I have a feeling that’s not the real problem here. For example, consider [Sundiata Acoli](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundiata_Acoli) ne Clark Edward Squire. I found him with about 5 minutes of Googling. He was a member of the [Black Liberation Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Liberation_Army) who was convicted in 1974 of the murder of a policeman. According to his web site, he is still incarcerated. Clearly he is just as much of a political prisoner as Barghouti. And yet Guinness apparently doesn’t care about him. Which leads me to suspect that the Guinness folks have the subconscious double-standard which is so common when the subject of Israel comes up. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/111 "2011-10-20T02:22:46Z")
So I wonder how many of the 1027 released were “prisoner of concience” and children? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/112 "2011-10-20T03:03:16Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > If the Israeli soldier had committed suicide rather than be released as part of this deal, would he be a hero or a fool? Committing suicide to stop the escape of at least ten mass murderers? A hero. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/113 "2011-10-20T03:18:22Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Committing suicide to stop the escape of at least ten mass murderers? A hero. I agree, but Israel would just fuck it up by trading five mass murderers for his corpse. ---
**Author:** ![montag01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@montag01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/montag01)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/114 "2011-10-20T03:43:11Z")
Andrew Sullivan has an interesting–perhaps paranoid?–take on the issue: > [@](#): > > The Shalit deal with Hamas was caused by many factors - the resilient sense of solidarity Israelis feel toward their soldiers, the possible loss of Damascus as a base for Hamas, the canny public relations campaign of the Shalit family, the sense that Egypt’s evolution might preclude a similar role as interlocutor in the future, etc. My own view, drawn from observing the far-right government in Israel, is that if the deal looks as if it is designed to undermine the PA and any possibility of renewed talks, by undermining popular support for non-violence, it probably is. > > In many ways, Netanyahu needs Hamas. If he can obliterate moderate and non-violent Palestinian factions, he can justify his real goal: the annexation of the entire West Bank. The full post is at [http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html](http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html) Anyone have thoughts on this? I enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan and generally agree with many of his points, but I find his take here to be shocking. It almost makes Netanyahu sound like a Palpatine-type of character. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/115 "2011-10-20T04:10:27Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan and generally agree with many of his points, but I find his take here to be shocking. It almost makes Netanyahu sound like a Palpatine-type of character. Given that apparently the majority of Israelis agree with Netanahu, I think Hanlon’s Razor (“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”) applies. Netanyahu is probably just one of the 79%. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/116 "2011-10-20T04:16:53Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Andrew Sullivan has an interesting–perhaps paranoid?–take on the issue: > > The full post is at [http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html](http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html) > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan and generally agree with many of his points, but I find his take here to be shocking. It almost makes Netanyahu sound like a Palpatine-type of character. Sully is a bit of a nutjob. He also knows very little about either the Middle East in general or Israel in particular. He also has the zeal of a convert on countless issues. On Israel, for example, he used to be a hard-core Zionist who had nothing but contempt, but recently converted to an ardent anti-Zionist who often flirted with soem rather odious anti-Semitic attitudes. He usually simply trades one simplistic take on a particular issue for another. Compare his writings on John McCain in 2005 to John McCain in 2009 or his rants about how liberals were quislings and traitors to America following 911 to how he now says almost the same about conservatives today. And don’t get me started on how he promoted _the Bell Curve_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/117 "2011-10-20T05:12:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Committing suicide to stop the escape of at least ten mass murderers? A hero. Sorry. Suicide is what the other guys do. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/118 "2011-10-20T05:28:41Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan and generally agree with many of his points, but I find his take here to be shocking. It almost makes Netanyahu sound like a Palpatine-type of character. I think with Netanyahu, it’s little more than, “Wow, this is popular and will make me look really good.” Bibi is neither particularly Machiavellian nor politically courageous. The man panders pretty shamelessly to public opinion, and this is what this is. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/119 "2011-10-20T05:56:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sorry. Suicide is what the other guys do. What terrorists do is bad because of their goals and their targets, not because they die in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/120 "2011-10-20T06:06:27Z")
That’s your opinion. To Israelis, it’s all one and the same - we despise suicide bombers for the suicide as much as for the murders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=7)