# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/121 "2011-10-20T06:38:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s your opinion. To Israelis, it’s all one and the same - we despise suicide bombers for the suicide as much as for the murders. You despise soldiers who throw themselves on grenades rather than allowing their fellow soldiers to get blown up? They’re committing suicide after all. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/122 "2011-10-20T11:37:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sorry. Suicide is what the other guys do. > [@Alessan](#): > > That’s your opinion. To Israelis, it’s all one and the same - we despise suicide bombers for the suicide as much as for the murders. What about Masada? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/123 "2011-10-20T12:02:37Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > What about Masada? They have nukes now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/124 "2011-10-20T13:00:18Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > What about Masada? There is a slight time-gap between the Zealots of Masada and modern Israelis. Israelis may revere in some ways the millenia-old history of ancient Israel, but they are not them. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/125 "2011-10-20T13:07:33Z")
It’s a good question, though. Both groups as far as I know had the same commandments. The only two that may not be broken to save a life are murder and incest. I believe the people at Masada killed each other as well as commuting suicide. It was certainly a hopeless case of being enslaved or killed by the Romans. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/126 "2011-10-20T13:10:32Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Andrew Sullivan has an interesting–perhaps paranoid?–take on the issue: > > The full post is at [http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html](http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html) > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan and generally agree with many of his points, but I find his take here to be shocking. It almost makes Netanyahu sound like a Palpatine-type of character. That’s what I already [said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14369843&postcount=59). For Likud, Hamas is the “right” counterpart. For every time Hamas’ standing increases, you can link it to Likud. And, overall, the timing of the deal could not be better in light of excitement generated by steady and peaceful management by Fatah’s leaders. And now, suddenly Fatah proposals are “radical”. Guess that makes Hamas “logical” partner for Likud. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/127 "2011-10-20T13:57:38Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I would say it’s nonsense, motivated by a desperate need to invert reality and cast Israel as the bad guy. And to divert attention from the fundamental wickedness of Israel’s enemies. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/128 "2011-10-20T13:58:40Z")
P.S. I’m still waiting for names and supporting information for 3 of these hundreds of Palestinian Arabs who were supposedly imprisoned by Israel for “nothing.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/129 "2011-10-20T14:34:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It’s a good question, though. Both groups as far as I know had the same commandments. The only two that may not be broken to save a life are murder and incest. I believe the people at Masada killed each other as well as commuting suicide. > It was certainly a hopeless case of being enslaved or killed by the Romans. No, they are quite different. Judaism at the time of the revolt against Rome was a fundamentally different religion in many ways, and of course modern Israeli society bares no resmblence whatsoever to that of ancient Israel. On the one hand, its mainstream practitioners worshipped in a centralized Temple (singular) in Jerusalem, had a caste of Priests, and followed commandments now long considered obsolete, such as those dealing with Priestly ritual purity and sacrifice; on the other hand, modern Judaism is more a product of the long development of rabbinnical lore in the Talmud. This question is much like asking modern Greeks demonstrating about the economic situation why they do not follow the patterns of their Spartan predecessors and simply despise comfort and money as effete. It is a non sequitur. Modern Greeks may take pride in their ancient predecessors, and even hold some of them up as culture-heroes, but they are not them. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/130 "2011-10-20T15:45:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > P.S. I’m still waiting for names and supporting information for 3 of these hundreds of Palestinian Arabs who were supposedly imprisoned by Israel for “nothing.” [http://www.btselem.org/testimonies](http://www.btselem.org/testimonies) Once the page is loaded, look to your right where there are two pick list. Skip the pick list “Year”. Choose the pick list that says “Pick a Topic”. In that list, find an entry “Detainees and Prisoners”. Once you select it, the page will reload with names & pictures that you are looking for. If you come back and ask nother question… ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/131 "2011-10-20T15:55:43Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > [http://www.btselem.org/testimonies](http://www.btselem.org/testimonies) > > Once the page is loaded, look to your right where there are two pick list. Skip the pick list “Year”. Choose the pick list that says “Pick a Topic”. In that list, find an entry “Detainees and Prisoners”. Once you select it, the page will reload with names & pictures that you are looking for. If you come back and ask nother question… I did as you suggested, the very first name was of an individual called “Ahmad Sabah.” The article goes on to state as follows: > [@](#): > > Ahmad Sabah was convicted of throwing stones, petrol bombs, and grenades, and of belonging to an illegal organization. So it would seem that your claim that Sabah was imprisoned for “nothing” is WRONG. Please feel free to retract your claim and apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/132 "2011-10-20T16:05:00Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > [http://www.btselem.org/testimonies](http://www.btselem.org/testimonies) > > Once the page is loaded, look to your right where there are two pick list. Skip the pick list “Year”. Choose the pick list that says “Pick a Topic”. In that list, find an entry “Detainees and Prisoners”. Once you select it, the page will reload with names & pictures that you are looking for. If you come back and ask nother question… You realize the first person on that list is the wife of Ahmad Sabah, who “was arrested, tried and convicted of membership in a Fatah militia, throwing fire bombs and making and conspiring to plant a bomb.” Some of the testimonies on that page do point to abuses, but not all of them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/133 "2011-10-20T16:14:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You realize the first person on that list is the wife of Ahmad Sabah, who “was arrested, tried and convicted of membership in a Fatah militia, throwing fire bombs and making and conspiring to plant a bomb.” Some of the testimonies on that page do point to abuses, but not all of them. The claim on the table is that there are hundreds of Palestinian Arabs in Israeli jails for “nothing.” I asked for 3 names and supporting information. Putting aside the fact that Ahmad Sabah is not currently in an Israeli jail, it seems pretty clear to me that he was not incarcerated for “nothing.” I suspect that what’s going on here is that some people believe deep down that violence against Jews in Israel is completely legitimate. It really is “nothing.” And Zionists need to keep in mind that this is the attitude we are dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/134 "2011-10-20T16:48:07Z")
No names but I’m guessing UNICEF aren’t lying: As the Israeli-Palestinian prisoner swap got under way this week, the U.N. Children’s Fund (UNICEF) appealed late last night to the Israel military to ensure the release of 164 Palestinian prisoners detained as minors, mostly on charges of throwing stones at Israeli authorities… Israel’s detention of minors has been a sore point for the U.N. children’s agencies and other children’s rights groups, who maintain that children should not be tried by military courts and that governments should only jail minors under the most extreme circumstances. “Military tribunals are not required to treat children’s best interests as their primary concern, and, therefore, are not an appropriate forum for hearing cases against children,” according to a September [report](http://www.un.org/children/conflict/_documents/Working%20Paper%20Number%203_Children%20and%20Justice.pdf) by the U.N. secretary general special representative for children and armed conflict, **Radikha Coomaraswamy**. “Seven thousand Palestinian children have been detained, interrogated and prosecuted and imprisoned in the Israeli military system over the past ten years,” **Catherine Weibel** , a spokeswoman for UNICEF said in a phone interview today. Weibel said that 35 of the detained minors are between the ages of 12 and 15 but that most are 16 or 17 years of age. Under Israeli law, minors over the age of 14 can be sentenced to up to 10 years in prison for throwing a stone at an individual, and up to 20 years for hurling it at a moving vehicle. [http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/10/18/unicef\_appeals\_to\_israel\_to\_release\_minors](http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/10/18/unicef_appeals_to_israel_to_release_minors) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/135 "2011-10-20T16:51:56Z")
Yes, why can’t Israel be like the US and not jail minors but instead send them home with stern warnings and no supper. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/136 "2011-10-20T16:52:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The claim on the table is that there are hundreds of Palestinian Arabs in Israeli jails for “nothing.” I asked for 3 names and supporting information. > > Putting aside the fact that Ahmad Sabah is not currently in an Israeli jail, it seems pretty clear to me that he was not incarcerated for “nothing.” I suspect that what’s going on here is that some people believe deep down that violence against Jews in Israel is completely legitimate. It really is “nothing.” And Zionists need to keep in mind that this is the attitude we are dealing with. The problem started because some people believe violence against Palestinians in Palestine is completely legitimate. Violence and an illegal forty-odd year military occupation. And that kind of violence and illegal land theft is obviously going to engender a violent reaction. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/137 "2011-10-20T16:58:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, they are quite different. Judaism at the time of the revolt against Rome was a fundamentally different religion in many ways, and of course modern Israeli society bares no resmblence whatsoever to that of ancient Israel. If you consider the 613 Mitzvote to be Tamudic, “Thou shalt not commit murder” is right up there in the first ten. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/138 "2011-10-20T17:01:27Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > The problem started because some people believe violence against Palestinians in Palestine is completely legitimate. Violence and an illegal forty-odd year military occupation. And that kind of violence and illegal land theft is obviously going to engender a violent reaction. I’m sorry but your comment shows a truly shocking level of ignorance on the situation. Palestinian groups were were massacring Jews in Hebron and other places long, long before even the formation of Israel much less the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. If you genuinely care about the Palestinians then I’d recommend visiting a library and brushing up on the history of the region. If you want, I can recommend some books from Palestinian authors and those sympathetic to them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/139 "2011-10-20T17:37:11Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > The problem started because some people believe violence against Palestinians in Palestine is completely legitimate. Yes, that would explain why the Arabs slaughtered dozens of Jews in Hebron in 1929 and ethnically cleansed Jews from Hebron in 1930; from Gaza City in 1948; from East Jerusalem in 1948. That also would explain why the Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan of 1947 and the Arabs rejected it and went to war to drive out all the Jews. > [@](#): > > Violence and an illegal forty-odd year military occupation. Nonsense, Arabs have been trying to chase out and slaughter all of the Jews since long before 1967. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/140 "2011-10-20T17:39:41Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > No names but I’m guessing UNICEF aren’t lying: The UN is extremely biased against Israel, so I wouldn’t trust them one bit. Anyway, the claim on the table is that there are hundreds of Palestinian Arabs who have been imprisoned for “nothing.” Do you agree with this claim or not? Oh, and are you saying there should be a blanket rule that anyone under the age of 18 should never be incarcerated by any government anywhere? Or is there a special standard which applies only to Israel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=8)