# Israel's prisoner swap with Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568 "2011-10-13T20:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/141 "2011-10-20T17:57:28Z")
This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I participated in. It is bizarre because my assumptions and assumptions of most others are exact opposite. For example, my assumption is that a soldier of an occupying force is a legitimate target for whatever happens to him as he should not be there in a first place. The other side has a view of a “poor innocent soldier” – I mean, this phrase is for the first time associated with a soldier of an occupying force in history where sympathy is with the member of the most equipped armed force against pretty much rock throwers. The second one where we have opposing view is that a civilian who resists the occupying force and gets arrested for whatever is still arrested illegally and he did nothing wrong with doing what, typically resistors to the occupying force have been doing for centuries. Well, he threw a rock a “poor innocent soldier”. Is the soldier okay? Will he still be able to shoot them all down? Let’s pray he will. If I’d apply these opposite assumptions to some other conflicts of a similar nature I’d be laughed out and ridiculed all over. But, somehow, all the assumptions that we get to recognize throughout the history do not apply in case of Israel. It’s appalling but what can you do. Oh, and… yeah, you’re right. I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/142 "2011-10-20T18:13:45Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > For example, my assumption is that a soldier of an occupying force is a legitimate target for whatever happens to him I would say that depends. If such a soldier is taken prisoner by regular soldiers of another entity and given the rights applicable to prisoners of war including visits by the Red Cross, I would say it’s legitimate. And it’s legitimate to trade that soldier for similar prisoners of war on the other side. Of course that’s not what happened here. Besides, the issue being discussed was not the legitimacy of Shalit’s captivity. The issues being discussed were whether the trade was a good idea and whether it was legitimate for Israel to incarcerate various Arabs. I realize that your argument on this point has fallen apart and you would prefer to change the subject, but that’s what we were talking about. > [@](#): > > The second one where we have opposing view is that a civilian who resists the occupying force and gets arrested for whatever is still arrested illegally and he did nothing wrong with doing what, Exactly what law is being broken by arresting and prosecuting an irregular who assaults a member of an occupying force? > [@](#): > > If I’d apply these opposite assumptions to some other conflicts of a similar nature I’d be laughed out and ridiculed all over. I disagree. I would say that at pretty much any place and time, an irregular who assaults members of an occupying force will be punished. Probably a lot of armies would have summarily executed such a person. Besides, Israel is not an occupying force in Gaza and Shalit was kidnapped from Israel proper. In any country in the world, if an irregular sneaks across the border and kidnaps a soldier, he can expect severe punishment if he is caught. Probably a lot of countries would summarily execute such a person. > [@](#): > > Oh, and… yeah, you’re right. I’m wrong. Thank you for finally admitting that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/143 "2011-10-20T18:15:43Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > For example, my assumption is that a soldier of an occupying force is a legitimate target for whatever happens to him This is why having a basic knowledge of the facts at issue, rather than making half baked “assumptions”, is generally the advised course of action. [ > [@](#): > > Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State. > […] > > Art. 42. The internment or placing in assigned residence of protected persons may be ordered only if the security of the Detaining Power makes it absolutely necessary. > […] > Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. > […] > Art. 78. If the Occupying Power considers it necessary, for imperative reasons of security, to take safety measures concerning protected persons, it may, at the most, subject them to assigned residence or to internment. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5)) > [@newcomer](#): > > Oh, and… yeah, you’re right. I’m wrong. You might find that happening less often if you based your views on facts. Just a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/144 "2011-10-20T18:15:56Z")
Yup, Newcomer is right. Teenagers in LA who fling rocks at police officers aren’t arrested so why should Israel do it? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/145 "2011-10-20T18:19:20Z")
Inferior weaponry does not confer moral superiority. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/146 "2011-10-20T18:42:42Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > . > > It’s appalling but what can you do. What you might do is abandon your assumption that Israel is automatically the bad guy in any conflict or dispute. Probably if you did that, you would make a lot fewer unsupportable claims. Whenever you are about to criticize Israel, first ask yourself what evidence you are basing the criticism on and whether you would accept the same evidence if it went against a country that you like. Then ask yourself whether you would criticize that other country for the same conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/147 "2011-10-20T23:03:01Z")
Arabs have a macho, warlike culture and always have. The Jews are only recently learning to be this way, after nearly two thousand years of being the all-time bitch of the world. Of course the Jews are going to be inept when it comes to political power-plays. There’s no other country in the entire world that would agree to an exchange like this one. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/148 "2011-10-20T23:06:02Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Andrew Sullivan has an interesting–perhaps paranoid?–take on the issue: > > The full post is at [http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html](http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance.html) > > Anyone have thoughts on this? I enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan and generally agree with many of his points, but I find his take here to be shocking. It almost makes Netanyahu sound like a Palpatine-type of character. Doubt it. Israel has a long history of prisoner and dead body swaps dating back to the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/149 "2011-10-20T23:11:33Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I participated in. > > It is bizarre because my assumptions and assumptions of most others are exact opposite. For example, my assumption is that a soldier of an occupying force is a legitimate target for whatever happens to him as he should not be there in a first place. Are we still talking about Schalit? Because he was kidnapped while in Israel. Does this mean you consider all of Israel to be ‘occupied’? :dubious: I wasn’t aware you were as radical as Hamas. > [@Alessan](#): > > Inferior weaponry does not confer moral superiority. Quote of the day. I actually wrote that one down. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/150 "2011-10-20T23:56:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Inferior weaponry does not confer moral superiority. Very true. But neither does consanguinity. Or co-religiosity. As smart as I generally find you, Finn, and Ibn (the three horsemen of the SDMB Israeli apologists) it seems that there is no action or policy that you three will not excuse for Israel. While you are undoubtedly often correct in your analyses, it does make for interesting reading, when the conclusion is always arrived at first, before the reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/151 "2011-10-21T00:04:08Z")
Err, that should read “does NOT make for interesting reading.” Stupid five minute edit window. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/152 "2011-10-21T00:06:59Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > the conclusion is always arrived at first, before the reasoning. And in what way is this different from the other side? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/153 "2011-10-21T00:37:12Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Very true. But neither does consanguinity. Or co-religiosity. > > As smart as I generally find you, Finn, and Ibn (the three horsemen of the SDMB Israeli apologists) it seems that there is no action or policy that you three will not excuse for Israel. While you are undoubtedly often correct in your analyses, it does make for interesting reading, when the conclusion is always arrived at first, before the reasoning. With all due respect, anyone who thinks I’m “an apologist” for Israel either hasn’t been paying attention to my posts or has an extremely superficial understanding of the situation. Also, I don’t get the “co-religiosity” claim since I’m not Jewish, but am instead Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/154 "2011-10-21T01:22:13Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Arabs have a macho, warlike culture and always have. Exactly how have the Arabs been more “macho” than the Middle Eastern Jews? One of the things Christian and Jewish leaders nude Islamic rule complained about was Christian and Jewish women “converting” to Islam before divorcing their husbands because Islamic law was more generous towards divorced women. Also, exactly how are “the Arabs” more “warlike” than say Americans. Historically they’ve been vastly less expansionist and vastly more tolerant of ethnic minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/155 "2011-10-21T01:32:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, exactly how are “the Arabs” more “warlike” than say Americans. > > Historically they’ve been vastly less expansionist and vastly more tolerant of ethnic minorities. Um. I don’t think you really mean the expansionist part. Arabs expand into what is now Syria in 635 Arabs conquer Jerusalem in 637 Arabs conquer Persian Empire in 641 and wipe out Zoroastrians Arabs conquer Cyprus in 649 Arabs conquer Carthage in 697 Arabs siege Constantinople (Istanbul) in 671 Arabs conquer Armenia in 694 Arabs defeat King Roderic in 711 and conquer most of Spain Arabs conquer Lisbon in 716 Arabs conquer Sardinia and Narbonne in 720 Arabs conquer Crete in 826, and Sicily and Sardinia in 827 Arabs attack Rome in 843, 846 and 849 Arabs conquer Malta in 869 and that’s just in western/northern direction. Arabs were also expanding into Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and China ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/156 "2011-10-21T02:05:13Z")
Did you mean to post this in the Pit? In any case… > [@Erdosain](#): > > As smart as I generally find you, Finn, and Ibn (the three horsemen of the SDMB Israeli apologists) it seems that there is no action or policy that you three will not excuse for Israel. Then you are not paying attention. To be fair, the lament from the knee-jerk, anti-Israel faction is often that, why, whatever position they take I have a well-cited, well-reasoned refutation for it. So obviously, if people who can’t bother to find out the basic facts first or who twist them in service of a partisan narrative find that I’m always disagreeing with them, it _must_ be that I’m for everything that Israel does. It’s a little bit like a 9/11 Truther declaring that those folks disagreeing with them must believe/support everything that the US government does. That you think Ibn is an Israeli apologist rather seals the deal for the fact that you’re truly not paying attention and are, in fact, counting anybody who cares about factual accuracy and intellectual honesty in he discussion as an “apologist”. > [@Erdosain](#): > > when the conclusion is always arrived at first, before the reasoning. I’ve posted twice in this thread. -Once was in response to newcomer’s ignorant nonsense about how people had “forgotten how this all came about” (ironic in light of the Three Noes and the '48/'67 wars) coupled with his claim ha Israel’s behavior was the cause of violence against in (ironic in light of the fact that there was massive violence against Jews in the region before Israel existed, let alone won the '67 war, that the PLO was founded before the '67 war, that one of the main forces for Arab nationalism pre '48 was an ally of the Nazis and he Nazis had broad Arab support for ethnically cleansing the Middle East during WWII…) -The second was in response to newcomer’s ignorant nonsense about how occupying soldiers were fair game for “whatever happens to [them]” and that “[civilians] who resist] the occupying force and [get] arrested for whatever [are] still arrested illegally and [they] did nothing wrong”. There, I pointed out the actual facts of the laws of war, and that in fact an occupying power’s soldiers are no fair game and the occupying power can legally take downright draconian measures in order to maintain order and security. In both cases, it was newcomer who came to a conclusion without basic factual knowledge and ‘reasoned’ himself backwards from his conclusion of ‘Grrr, Israel am bad!’ to finding ways to justify it. In both cases I had actual knowledge of the facts which I used to point out why his rationalizations were erroneous. That you choose to see this as _me_ working backwards from a conclusion is, of course, an interesting mistake to make. Just like naming Ibn an “apologist” because he has a habit of pointing out when people are ignorant of basic facts or are adopting irrational anti-Israel narratives (based on double standards and/or simply being reflexively anti-Israel rather than actually being concerned about the Palestinian people). Reminds me more than a bit of a few Truthers who’ve come here and made claims like “Everybody at the SDMB is a slavish follower of Bush, because none of you will question the Official Story!” There it’s more obviously ridiculous because Truthers are in the extreme minority, but the same type of argument made by the knee-jerk anti-Israel crowd here is less obvious (to some) because theirs is the majority position. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/157 "2011-10-21T02:06:12Z")
Er… Muslim doesn’t equal Arab. Besides, the Arabs didn’t exist back then You might as well refer to Americans fighting in the War of the Roses. Besides even if one wished to ignore the fact that Arabs didn’t exist until the late 19th to the early 20th Century and classify Muslims who spoke Turkish, Persian or other languages as Arabs(which you seem to have done) there’s hardly any evidence of them being more warlike that Western Europeans. In fact, most of their existence has been under foreign rule(Ottoman, Israeli, or European) or the proxies of non-Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/158 "2011-10-21T02:23:50Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I participated in. Keep in mind that there are many Israelis on this board. It is difficult for them to see an outsiders perspective on the conflict with Palestine, hence you are going to get some seriously biased views - which is completely understandable. Note that some are even saying that the UN is biased against Israel. Back at the ranch… I think the swap is a lose-lose situation. It will encourage further kidnappings and puts mass-killers back onto the streets as well as make Israel look stupid. [On the bright side it looks like there were many children released](http://www.eurasiareview.com/20102011-concerns-over-palestinian-children-in-israeli-custody/), and, of course, Gilad Shalit was released as well. “According to UNICEF, over 7,000 Palestinian children were arrested and detained by Israeli authorities over the past 10 years.” Children are mainly imprisoned for stone throwing. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/159 "2011-10-21T02:42:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Exactly how have the Arabs been more “macho” than the Middle Eastern Jews? > > One of the things Christian and Jewish leaders nude Islamic rule complained about was Christian and Jewish women “converting” to Islam before divorcing their husbands because Islamic law was more generous towards divorced women. > > Also, exactly how are “the Arabs” more “warlike” than say Americans. > > Historically they’ve been vastly less expansionist and vastly more tolerant of ethnic minorities. I’m not saying that the Arabs are more warlike than _Americans._ I’m saying they have a long, long, long tradition of military might, and the Jews do not. Yes, many thousands of years ago, Judeans and Isrealites were warriors, but in the past two thousand years, they have not had any kind of military power. They did produce many great scholars and sages, but those kind of values don’t keep you safe when a powerful warlord or king decides to massacre you, rape your wives, and sell your children into slavery. Jews became an emasculated, prostrate people, existing only at the mercy of Gentile leaders, who could and did have them expelled and/or killed on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568/160 "2011-10-21T02:49:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m not saying that the Arabs are more warlike than _Americans._ I’m saying they have a long, long, long tradition of military might, and the Jews do not. Yes, many thousands of years ago, Judeans and Isrealites were warriors, but in the past two thousand years, they have not had any kind of military power. They did produce many great scholars and sages, but those kind of values don’t keep you safe when a powerful warlord or king decides to massacre you, rape your wives, and sell your children into slavery. Jews became an emasculated, prostrate people, existing only at the mercy of Gentile leaders, who could and did have them expelled and/or killed on a whim. You think the Arabs have a “long, long, long tradition of military might”? Since they came into existence, they’ve gone from being ruled by the Ottomans to ruled by the Europeans to being ruled by the Israelis. Exactly what “long, long, long tradition of military might” are you talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-prisoner-swap-with-hamas/599568.md?page=9)