# Israel's tacticial situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758 "2006-07-16T16:59:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Caffeine\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@Caffeine\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/161 "2006-07-27T09:41:13Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] As a complete diversion, but since people have brought it up, the Siege of Warsaw was quite amazing, the Germans offered the Jews the chance of surrender and promised that they would be treated as prisoners. The Jews gave up, and to their amazement the Germans kept their word. I would not believe this, but I was told it in 1985 by a Jewish guy who was in the siege and one of the prisoners. [/QUOTE] Did he also mentioned, that four years later few remaining Jews rounded up in Warsaw ghetto were send by trains to Auschwitz? War in 1939 was relatively nice. It was 1940 when they started to [kill civilians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%9Ferordentliche_Befriedungsaktion) and 1942 when they started full scale [“final solution”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_solution) - including killing POWs. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/162 "2006-07-27T09:59:57Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] So far nobody in this thread has pointed out that the Israelis bombed South Lebanon with leaflets - telling people to get out. . [/QUOTE] Which they aren’t necessarily able to do. The infrastructure has been targeted, and it’s quite widely reported that moving within Lebanon has become very difficult, and even more so in southern Lebanon. This has been a major problem, for instance, for the evacuation of foreigners living in this area. An article I read yesterday reported about some village in southern Lebanon where such leaflets have been dropped. problem is : the main road has been destroyed, and vehicles using the secondary one are destroyed because it passes close to Hezbollah positions and a strategic location. IOW the population is warned to evacuate and prevented from doing so, or targeted if it tries. Israel refused to open a safe corridor for the evacuation of civilians and/or foreigners. Telling people to get out in such conditions is quite hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/163 "2006-07-27T11:00:28Z")
[QUOTE=Caffeine Cat] Did he also mentioned, that four years later few remaining Jews rounded up in Warsaw ghetto were send by trains to Auschwitz? War in 1939 was relatively nice. It was 1940 when they started to [kill civilians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%9Ferordentliche_Befriedungsaktion) and 1942 when they started full scale [“final solution”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_solution) - including killing POWs. [/QUOTE] No, he did not, he did not talk about such things much. I often wondered how he survived. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/164 "2006-07-27T11:41:29Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Which they aren’t necessarily able to do. The infrastructure has been targeted, and it’s quite widely reported that moving within Lebanon has become very difficult, and even more so in southern Lebanon. This has been a major problem, for instance, for the evacuation of foreigners living in this area. An article I read yesterday reported about some village in southern Lebanon where such leaflets have been dropped. problem is : the main road has been destroyed, and vehicles using the secondary one are destroyed because it passes close to Hezbollah positions and a strategic location. IOW the population is warned to evacuate and prevented from doing so, or targeted if it tries. Israel refused to open a safe corridor for the evacuation of civilians and/or foreigners. Telling people to get out in such conditions is quite hypocritical. [/QUOTE] I know it sounds crazy, but the place is not very large, people can walk out. - the distances are minute, even by UK standards. My understanding is that the Israelis are targetting anything that looks as if it is carrying Katyushas into or out of the South. To me it is astonishing how many people have /not/ been killed Incidentally I am not entirely sure what the contrived UK furore about Bunker Busters being shipped via Scotland is all about, someone is broadcasting signals. Reverting to the precise topic. ‘Israel’s Tactical Situation’ I have decided to delete the rest of my post, I think I can see what is going on. The trap is about to shut. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/165 "2006-07-27T15:04:51Z")
Why did Israel BOMB the UN observer post? Supposedly, the UN informed Israel of bombs being dropped "real close’-yet the Israeli killed 4 UN observers-what sense does this make? Of course, I have no idea just what these guys are supposed to do-tell people there is a war on? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/166 "2006-07-27T15:46:09Z")
[QUOTE=Caffeine Cat] For example in USA people have a lot of handguns and rifles. But I’m yet to hear about guy keeping truck-mounted multiple artillery rocket launcher in his backyard, unharrased by authorities. [/QUOTE] I vaguely recall years ago reading an article from some sci-fi author ( Niven ? ), where he mentions some engineer who frequented sci-fi conventions being referred to jokingly as a “nuclear power” because he built his own Titan missle in his back yard. [QUOTE=ralph124c] Why did Israel BOMB the UN observer post? Supposedly, the UN informed Israel of bombs being dropped "real close’-yet the Israeli killed 4 UN observers-what sense does this make? [/QUOTE] Well, here’s one possibility : [Link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm) [QUOTE=BBC News] Following the deaths of four UN observers in an Israeli air strike, Australia has withdrawn 12 UN peacekeepers, describing the prospect of sending an international force to Lebanon right now as a “suicide mission” [/QUOTE] Perhaps they want to drive out any UN observers. As far as why they would want that, from the same article : [QUOTE=BBC News] “We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world… to continue the operation,” Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said. Mr Ramon - a close confidant of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert - said “everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror”. He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in. He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter. “All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah,” Mr Ramon said. [/QUOTE] Massacre time ! ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/167 "2006-07-27T15:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] You’re determined to Gotwinize these threads, are you? [/QUOTE] not me read #153 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/168 "2006-07-27T16:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I vaguely recall years ago reading an article from some sci-fi author ( Niven ? ), where he mentions some engineer who frequented sci-fi conventions being referred to jokingly as a “nuclear power” because he built his own Titan missle in his back yard. [/QUOTE] Larry Niven: Fallen Angle. [QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] not me read #153 [/QUOTE] …which was a direct follow up on your previous post: _In ww2 Germany bombed London daily. Did it make them quit. Hell no it gave them more reason to resist. It does not work. Honest negotiations are the only chance._ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/169 "2006-07-27T16:46:41Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Larry Niven: Fallen Angle. [/quote] _Fallen Angel_ was a novel ( which I never read ), not an article, although he might have based a character on/mentioned the real guy in the novel. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/170 "2006-07-28T03:15:39Z")
Re Israel’s (and the US’s) _strategic_ situation after this is all over, some quotes from a highly intelligent Mideast-oriented blog, \*\*[Syria Comment](http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/index.html) \*\*: > [@](#): > > \*\*[Syria Will Emerge Stronger from the Lebanon Debacle](http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/2006/07/syria-will-emerge-stronger-from.htm) \*\* > Joshua Landis > July 26, 2006 > Syria Comment > > The present Israeli campaign in Lebanon will strengthen the Syrian regime. Many analysts are beginning to come to this conclusion. Why? > > 1. The three states in which the US has promised to create democracy and a better future – Palestine, Iraq, and Lebanon – have experienced chaos, growing radicalism and a decline in their economies. Syrians see this and will cling tighter to their regime, whether they like it or not. > 2. Democracy, the American export, has been further discredited in the eyes of Middle Easterners. The US promised Lebanon’s new anti-Syrian democratic coalition that it would be protected and backed by Washington in its struggle with Damascus. This turns out to have been a false promise. Democracy led to weakness and division in the Lebanese government. Washington and Israel lost patience with the Lebanese government after little more than a year and chose to punish it for not showing the characteristics of a powerful dictatorship that can destroy opposition groups. Washington has turned against its own democratic experiment. **The lesson is that Washington cannot be trusted, is not sincere about democracy, and will not back its Arab allies against Israel.** > … > Asad’s prediction that Lebanon would regret abandoning Syria’s defense umbrella for America’s defense umbrella may be correct. Syrians already believe this and now believe that Asad’s prediction was correct. If Lebanon is pushed back into civil war by Israeli and US demands that it disarm Hizbullah, Asad’s prediction that Lebanon is not a nation and will slip back into civil war will turn out to be correct. Many Lebanese had said that Asad would “break Lebanon” in order to make his predictions come true. Ironically, Israel and Washington have broken Lebanon to make Asad’s predictions come true. So far Bashar al-Asad has proven to be a better judge of regional character and politics than President Bush. > … > 3. Lebanon was the major pro-American source for applying moral and political pressure on the Asad regime. \*\*It will no longer play that role. > \*\* > … > So far President Asad has been able to outfox Washington. He has refused to accept the “Qaddhafi-like deal” John Bolton demanded of him last year without paying a price. He has weathered American military threats, economic sanctions, multilateral diplomacy, and now the unleashing of Israeli military might. Washington hasn’t much else to throw at him. If Bush doesn’t pick up the phone to Asad, it is quite likely the next administration will have to. All this, and Iran gets to develop its nukes without any interference because of the diversion of this war. So, as I observed way back at the beginning of this thread, in a few years we’ll probably be treated to the spectacle of the world’s very first nuclear exchange, between Iran and Israel. Wotta treat that’ll be, eh? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/171 "2006-07-28T03:36:46Z")
Might just as likely be Pakistan/India. Maybe even more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/172 "2006-07-28T19:26:26Z")
This is the truth of it fighting leads to killing and killin gleads to warring and that was damn near the death of us all Look at us now all busted up and everyone talking about hard rain but we learned from the dust of them all when it happens here it finishes here 2 men enter 1 man leave ladies and gentlemen boys and girls dying time is here We play at our little wars and devalue human life. Someday we all pay. bigtime. in 30 years they all will have nukes, then it would be too late to make peace. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/173 "2006-07-28T20:51:57Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Why did Israel BOMB the UN observer post? Supposedly, the UN informed Israel of bombs being dropped "real close’-yet the Israeli killed 4 UN observers-what sense does this make? Of course, I have no idea just what these guys are supposed to do-tell people there is a war on? [/QUOTE] Here are two hypotheses. 1. Israel doesn’t want human rights observers in certain areas. Source: the posterior of some poster on the internet. 2. [Hezbollah was using UN post as ‘shield’](http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50&k=55961): Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics. “What I can tell you is this,” he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing. “The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity.” Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie. “What that means is, in plain English, 'We’ve got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces),” he said. That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. … The e-mail appears to contradict the UN’s claim there had been no Hezbollah activity in the vicinity of the strike. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758/174 "2006-07-28T21:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] 1. Israel doesn’t want human rights observers in certain areas. Source: the posterior of some poster on the internet. [/QUOTE] Ack! Sorry **Der Trihs** : I had not read your post when I wrote this. I was not trying to dig at anyone either: I simply couldn’t remember where I had seen the allegation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-tacticial-situation/364758.md?page=8)