Issues on which it is genuinely not clear who will end up on the "right side of history"

There’s no “right side of history”. Past attitudes, values and mores will be judged by each culture on the basis of its own moral values. Since those are bound to change over time, so will the judgement made about past issues. You think of course that there has been a “progress” because you hold the current values of your culture as (on the overall) the correct ones, so obviously you will see the path leading there as an improvement. That’s a bit tautological.

I suspect that you believe that values will keep going in a direction that you approve of. Which is IMO wishful thinking. Especially since so much of our values are based on pretty arbitrary moral assumptions that seem “obvious”(or at least very convincing) to everybody only because they have been one could say “brainwashed” into seeing them as positive, and the more “obvious” they seem the less opposing discourse will be tolerated and opposing arguments considered. A lot, probably the majority, of people will refuse to seriously consider the arguments of the opposing side about a divisive issue (say, abortion), and this is even truer for not divisive issues (say, pedophilia) where arguments will be immediately dismissed.

But things change over time, and unless the issue can be settled by objective, scientific facts (say, the earth is round, not flat), and social sciences, psychology, etc…at this point in time definitely don’t qualify as hard sciences whose conclusions can be assumed as factual and not influenced by cultural beliefs (see for instance how the views of psychiatry wrt homosexuality has changed, unsurprisingly following the changes of perception in society), arbitrary moral preferences will decide what is right and what is wrong.

Can you demonstrate objectively without resorting to arbitrary moral statements that the preferences of the mother should trump the right to live of the fetus? Can you demonstrate in the same way that in a society open to it, informed and consensual sexual relations between children and adults would necessarily be harmful? Can you demonstrate that benefiting from the work of others (capitalist system) is moral? Can you demonstrate that animals shouldn’t have the same right to live as humans? Can you demonstrate that the individual freedom of one individual should trump the interests of the many?
You would probably be pretty unhappy in a society that bans abortion, condone pedophilia, forbid salaried work, ban the consumption of meat and limit your individual freedom to benefit the collective. But for someone raised in such a society, all these things would be “obviously” moral. And if you disputed them, you would considered a truly horrible person. How can you say that an innocent fetus should die just because its mother would like it better this way? Why do you hate so much children and pedophiles? Why do you support enslavement of people for profit? How can you even think of killing an innocent animal, let alone of consuming its dead flesh? How egoistical can you be to think that your personal preferences should prevail when they harm millions? And of course, they would come up with a bazillion of “obvious” arguments against your positions that they have learned from their parents, their peers, their schools, their medias, etc…

And it’s not like they would be wrong and misled. It’s simply that they would have different moral premises and it would be in most cases impossible to determine objectively that their set of moral assumptions is better, or worse, than yours. In order to debate with someone of whether something is moral or not, you need a common moral ground. Once the basic moral assumptions are two divergent, no lesser moral issue can be settled. And disagreement on most societal issues is generally based, not on one side being objectively right and the other side being objectively wrong, but on the lack of a common moral ground (even assuming that you know what effect lowering taxes will have, and in fact you don’t, you can’t agree on whether lowering them is a good or bad thing if you disagree on the desired outcome). If people don’t agree about who or what has an imprescriptible right to live, there’s no way to determine whether abortion or meat eating is moral, or regrettable but acceptable, or a monstrous crime.

And I’m generous when I say that what is perceived as right or wrong is decided by a moral reasoning. Pretty often, morals are invoked for arbitrary cultural preferences not based on any kind of moral reasoning. For instance, someone will find normal that a woman will be sent to court for being topless in public, and at the same time will find oppressive that a woman will be sent to court for not covering her legs to the ankle in another country. So, what is “moral” in this case is simply “what is done around here” and what is immoral is any deviation from this norm in either direction.

And of course, finally, even if you were somehow able to demonstrate that something is objectively and indisputably immoral, it’s no guarantee that a future society won’t accept and condone it. And consider it as perfectly moral. So assuming that there will be a “good side of history” and a “bad side of history” is, in my opinion, deluded.
To finish, I just so happen to have read yesterday the blog of a social activist who is also an antispecist, and who definitely see her fight against specism as a natural and obvious continuation of her fight against sexism and racism. For her, who, from her arguments, believe in this “progress” you’re assuming, this progress will inevitably lead to the triumph of antispecism, and people supporting the consumption of animal products, like me and probably you, are definitely on the bad side of history (and if her opinion eventually prevails, we’ll be seen as not just wrong, but horrifically evil, probably as worse than for instance people who kept supporting slavery when its morality began to be seriously disputed).

(I absolutely agree with the whole wall of words, but this sidetrack lets me bounce off)
Speaking of, earlier in the thread when I listed the various pro- and con- arguments historically used in the debate on US slavery ; the thought popped into my head that, while most seemed utterly callous and inhumane when you think about black people as, well, *people *; none were all that out there if you conceptualize black people as being somewhere in the general vicinity of cows (like most of them did). I didn’t publish it however because what I’d ended writing could have been very offensive to black readers and that doesn’t spark joy.

But then I turned that around to re-frame stuff people today hardly question when it comes to cows : of course you can own and trade them, it’s been done for thousands of years. And raising cows for meat is good for the cows actually because there’s a lot more cows on the planet than, say, zebras. And of course you can use violence to get a cow to do what you need it to, they can get dumb and ornery sometimes, as long as it doesn’t veer into cruelty it’s OK. And it’s OK to separate cows from their calves, and to force this cow to have sex with that bull because selective breeding. And even if raising cows was morally horrible we can’t just free them overnight, think of the chaos and the jobs and the money ! Etc, etc…

Basically the arguments pro- meat eating became really callous and unpalatable to me when I moved the conceptual space cows exist in my mind somewhere closer to where people are. But… but I really *like *burgers though… So in the end it’s easier to mentally blindfold myself and not really think about it all that much, to cut down on the uncomfortable ethical conflict, moral angst and cognitive dissonance.
Presumably like slavers and abolitionists alike did.

Having seen the optimistic opinions of some people wrt to China, I must say that I’m not as confident as they are that things will turn out for the best.

While China is becoming a more liberal society for certain aspects, I find the growing social control there concerning, and even frightening. When you begin to centralize data coming as well from the state apparatus (police, tax service, health services,…) and from the “private” sector (social medias, telephone companies, online shops…) you can know pretty much everything a person do and say at this point in time. And that’s what China is in the process of doing. And when you plan to use this data to implement a system of “social credit” where people are sanctioned (for instance by not being able to get a job, or a loan, or a train ticket, or a college spot for their children) for what the state is aware they have done or said, or read, or even for whom they associate with, it looks a lot like a frightening dystopia. Even if you allow some liberties on the side.

And worst, I’m not convinced that our own western societies wouldn’t follow the lead. First because they can. A lot of people are worried already both by the amount of data now collected about us, and by the states’ tendency to insist on accessing this data (you know, to protect us). But, in my opinion, not enough people and not concerned enough. Second because China’s influence is growing and ours is dwindling. Inevitably, the cultural influence of China will increase as its political and economical influence increases, and people will look up to China for changes and for solutions.

And in fact, this control on data and information is already bringing some positive results. For instance in the fight against crime. How long before a western country’s population, after the umpteenth terrorist attack, begins to agree to, or even clamor for, a Chinese-style social control? Really, if you aren’t a bad person, you have nothing to hide, right? Why would it bothers you that the police knows everything you do and say? And if you are a bad person, why wouldn’t you be sanctioned for it? You have a problem with terrorists and child rapists not being allowed to board a train? So, why don’t you support Big Brother, you evil person?

If antispecists win, people will feel deeply that animal husbandry is horrific. That won’t be just some sort of intellectual reasoning, as it is now for many, and they won’t be as moderate in their views as most antispecists are nowadays because despite their views, meat consumption is normal in our society and they’ve been raised to perceive it as normal. Those future people will see it as monstrous, as I wrote.

And they’ll find we have little excuses.

We don’t need to meat to live anymore (not even other animal products, since we can take supplements as needed), and we don’t know hunger (in fact, not eating meat would solve a number of food issues) so no justification by necessity.

We’re perfectly aware that animals aren’t just “things” as reflected in our laws and our habits. We definitely are already aware that killing and mistreating animals is a problem, again as reflected in our laws that prevent you from mistreating a horse or killing a dog. We understand (or at least believe) that animals can feel pain and suffer. We’re kept aware of the terrible practices in the animal industry, scientific research, etc…So, no justification by ignorance, either.

And finally, there are already many noble precursors and heroes who are fighting the good fight, like PETA or the woman I was talking about which definitely proves that any of us could do the same. It’s not like we’re still in an age where nobody would have considered that killing animals was wrong. If we keep supporting it, it’s because we choose to knowingly. And to choose to torture and kill innocent animals you need to be evil at heart.

They’ll probably picture us munching on dead flesh (assuming they can avoid vomiting when evoking such an idea), blood dripping from our mouth on our chin, wondering if the baby calf has been tortured enough for its meat to be appropriately tender and smiling and laughing at the sweet thought of all this animal suffering, . Your “but it’s tasty” joking statement will be found about as amusing as “but it feels so good to fuck those female slaves”. In fact, as I said, probably even less amusing.

Yup, pretty much - and I wasn’t really making a joke. Ultimately we eat meat (and chafe at the shrill cries of militant vegans) because we like it, and we’ve created representations and mental frameworks to make that OK but they’re absolutely arbitrary. Just as it’s arbitrary to look down on, say, cultures where dog eating is condoned, because we’ve created cultural representations where we feel empathy for dogs and have moved them closer to the “people” space.
Which, btw, while arbitrary is also objectively correct because dogs are the best people.

But yeah, you have it absolutely right.

I honestly could see people flip-flopping whether its right or not about to legalize recreational drugs.

Drugs are legalized? A few generations after dealing with the unfortunate side effects of that? It’s wrong so let’s re-criminalize them.

Drugs are illegal again? A few generations later, the drugs laws are too harsh. They are not helping addicts and too many innocent people get caught in the enforcement of them. So let’s legalize them again.

And so on and so forth. I

I think the consumption of meat is indeed something that will be regarded as being beyond the pale 30 or 40 years from now, so that may be one where we can see “the right side of history” as a distant horizon already.

What if a man a woman absolutely trusted lied to her in saying he was using a reliable form of male birth control?

But the bigger factor is mind-changing.

Sometimes the mind-changing is because of initial ambivalence about becoming pregnant. And sometimes it’s due to changing circumstances (job loss, health problem arises in family, found out spouse is cheating, etc., etc., etc.)

I apologize in advance for picking you at random to make a point that applies to many posters in the thread.

If meat eating becomes “beyond the pale” because of global warning, the same might be true of low-yield-per-acre agricultural practices like organic farming and use of heirloom seeds.

Am I really predicting this “might” will become a “will be”? No. Is it any less likely than your prediction? That largely depends on whether taking a current trend line, and expecting it to continue in that direction, is a good way to predict the future.

There is a current trend line where animals are treated as having a right to life (no kill shelters). Your prediction fits there. But many current trends will stop or reverse. Do I know which ones? No. No one does.

Here’s a trend that I hope reverses but may not:

Internet freedom continues to decline around the world; a new report says Governments are reining in liberty for the eighth consecutive year

I’m not seeing it being reversed anytime soon. I think we’re just at the start. It’s not only the governments, it’s also the general public who wants people who do, post or read bad things on the internet to be silenced and punished. Censorship is very trendy, nowadays. Even in the USA, which is pretty much the only country taking freedom of speech seriously, and not only among college students.

Since this trend worries me quite a lot, and pisses me a lot, I tend to pay attention, and there’s hardly a week when I don’t read about some change or another in this direction.

And regarding your link, by the way, France is one of the countries that passed a law restricting expression on the internet (mandating that large internet sites will delete within 24 hours statements of users deemed as “hate speech” or face very stiff fines. As if they weren’t already trigger happy enough with regard to controversial issues).