# "It aint over till the fat lady sings." Does that refer to a specific opera?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 28, 2006, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462 "2006-06-28T06:39:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/1 "2006-06-28T06:39:22Z")
Or is that just a stereotype in general?
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### Author:  [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/2 "2006-06-28T06:53:15Z")
Wagner I’d guess.
I wouldn’t know as I could never sit through an entire Wagner piece.
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### Author:  [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/3 "2006-06-28T07:26:45Z")
No, it hasn’t been traced to any particular opera.
Here’s Dave Wilton of [Word Origins](http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorf.htm) :
"The phrase was first used in column by sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976. Cook’s column, which appeared in the San Antonio News-Express, was about the San Antonio Spurs, a professional basketball team. But Cook didn’t coin the phrase; he may have added the bit about the opera, but he didn’t create the phrase all on his own.
That same year, the phrase Church ain’t out 'till the fat lady sings appears in a pamphlet titled Southern Words and Sayings, by Fabia and Charles Smith.
Given that no one has found a citation earlier than 1976 indicates that the phrase, in whatever form, is probably not much older than that. It is more likely a folksy-sounding invention, rather than a traditional Southern expression. Both variants are from the Southern US, although the Smiths don’t indicate what part of the South the Church variant is from. And since they appear nearly simultaneously, we can’t tell which version is the original."
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### Author:  [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/4 "2006-06-28T12:46:57Z")
When I think of the phrase I envision a fat lady in full Viking gear…blond braids, horned helmet, leather bodice with cast-iron double E cups…singing;
“Hi-oh to-hooooWAH!”
Brunhilda?
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### Author:  [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/5 "2006-06-28T15:20:27Z")
I 've always thought it had something to do with old movies.
Look at the classic Marx Brothers comedies–they are still funny today, (and must have been even funnier in their day)–but they have an _incredibly_ annoying tendency to feature fat ladies singing.
In the 1920’s the idea of a talking picture was still new, so part of the interest was just seeing the latest hi-tech innovation: voices singing, just like a “real” performance of a live person. So the audience was willing to sit through a totally unecessary diversion that had very little to do with the plot.
(just my guessing here–so if I’m totally off base, dont blame me. Blame the Marx brothers)
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### Author:  [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/6 "2006-06-28T15:47:27Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#):
>
> When I think of the phrase I envision a fat lady in full Viking gear…blond braids, horned helmet, leather bodice with cast-iron double E cups…singing;
>
> “Hi-oh to-hooooWAH!”
>
> Brunhilda?
This [cd](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002SO9/qid=1151509561/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9197497-7915316?v=glance&s=music) I have pops to mind.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/7 "2006-06-28T16:28:04Z")
Many’s vision of opera were formed by viewing the movie[_Big Broadcast of 1938_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Broadcast_of_1938), featuring a clip of Kirsten Flagstad in full Brunhilde armor and horned helmet, waving a spear while singing “Ho-jo-toho-o-o!”
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/8 "2006-06-28T16:38:29Z")
Just to mention one of my probable misconceptions, I used to think it had to do with Kate Smith whose _When the moon comes over the mountain_ was a sign-off song for some show or other.
In later years I’ve been convinced it’s an opera cliche’ for the fat lady to do the wrap-up. I imagine one specific opera may have been involved way back when, but the cliche’ probably had plenty of reasons to become more generalized.
I love **Enola Straight** ’s description above of the Wagner gal with the cast-iron E cups. Wonder if Madonna got inspired by that…
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/9 "2007-02-25T00:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=Enola Straight]
When I think of the phrase I envision a fat lady in full Viking gear…blond braids, horned helmet, leather bodice with cast-iron double E cups…singing;
“Hi-oh to-hooooWAH!”
Brunhilda?
[/QUOTE]
I listened to _Ride Of The Valkyries_ this morning. Valkyries chose heroes from the dead to fight for Odin at a great battle that was to have happened at the End of the World. I don’t know enough about the opera to know how it goes after the ‘ride’; but if Brünnhilde (or her sisters) are cleaning up after a battle, and if Brünnhilde were… er, ‘zaftig’, then maybe that has something to do with it?
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### Author:  [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/10 "2007-02-25T01:12:15Z")
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fat Lady Sings were a rock band from Dublin, Ireland. They recorded at least 2 albums in the early 1990s.
> **[The opera ain't over till the fat lady sings - phrase meaning and origin](https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/19/messages/174.html)**
>
> The opera ain't over till the fat lady sings - the meaning and origin of this phrase
OPERA AIN’T OVER TILL THE FAT LADY SINGS, THE – “The outcome of any contest isn’t known until the final results are in. Thus, don’t make premature judgments or give up too soon. Often associated with Wagnerian opera, specifically Brunhilde’s ‘Fire Song,’ in ‘Die Walkure,’ and the fact that Wagner may seem interminable to nonaficionados. Thus one’s impatience would be relieved when ‘the fat lady sings.’ Originated in the United States in the 1970s. Bartlett’s ‘Familiar Quotations’ attributes the coinage to San Antonio TV sports commentator Dan Cook. Ralph Graves claims in the August 1991 issue of ‘Smithsonian’ that it has its roots in Southern proverbial lore: 'Church ain’t out till the fat lady sings. There are still other attributions, but nobody really knows who coined this popular saying.” From the “Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings” (1996) by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996).
I agree with Zeldar, that I always assumed it meant Kate Smith. She ended a lot of shows in her Florida home venues with _God Bless America_
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### Author:  [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/11 "2007-02-25T01:15:54Z")
[QUOTE=chappachula]
… part of the interest was just seeing the latest hi-tech innovation… So the audience was willing to sit through a totally unecessary diversion that had very little to do with the plot.
[/quote]
_Star Wars_ prequels, anyone?
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/12 "2007-02-25T02:40:09Z")
I always assumed that it was a reference to Brunhilda. Is “Fire Song” at the end of _Die Walkure_?
I’ve seen photos of Maria Callas when she was rather large herself and read that she had a tapeworm that caused her to lose weight.
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### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/13 "2007-02-25T02:55:14Z")
Now I’m imagining Bugs Bunny in [_What’s Opera, Doc_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_Opera%2C_Doc%3F), with Bugs Bunny as Brunnhilde and Elmer Fudd as Siegfried. The animators made the brilliant choice of making Bug’s _horse_ zaftig, since he couldn’t be…
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### Author:  [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/14 "2007-02-25T03:08:57Z")
You guys should all check out this awesome column in the Chicago Reader.
[http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_243b.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_243b.html)
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/15 "2007-02-25T03:37:42Z")
By the way, just to make it clear, the Valkyrie don’t wear steel braziers. Those her tits.
And this is the quintessential beauty in the female form. (If you are a ancient Rhine man.)
Tris
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings-does-that-refer-to-a-specific-opera/362462/16 "2007-02-25T04:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=chappachula]
Look at the classic Marx Brothers comedies–they are still funny today, (and must have been even funnier in their day)–but they have an _incredibly_ annoying tendency to feature fat ladies singing.
[/QUOTE]
Margaret Dumont signs a few bars of the Freedonian National Anthem at the end of Duck Soup and the Marxes pelt her with fruit.
But that wasn’t an opera. Nor are there fat ladies singing in A Night at the Opera (the villain there is a male opera singer, and Kitty Carlisle was young and beautiful). Nor are there any other fat ladies signing opera in any of their other movies. Or singing much of anything at all.
In short, I don’t think the Marxes have anything to do with it. There are a million other cultural references to fat ladies singing opera. Bulk literally helps to cerate a stronger and better projecting voice. That’s why male opera singers also tend to be fat.
> [@Triskadecamus](#):
>
> By the way, just to make it clear, the Valkyrie don’t wear steel braziers.
I bet to hell they don’t!
> [@](#):
>
> bra·zier1 /ˈbreɪʒər/–noun
>
> 1. a metal receptacle for holding live coals or other fuel, as for heating a room.
> 2. a simple cooking device consisting of a container of live coals covered by a grill or thin metal top upon which the food, usually meat, is placed.