# It couldn't happen again in Florida, could it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188 "2004-07-08T23:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/1 "2004-07-08T23:49:55Z")
[No, please, anything but that.](http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040708/COLUMNIST36/407080376) > [@](#): > > The list is designed to help each county’s election supervisor remove felons from voter rolls. Close to half the people on the purge list are black, but that isn’t a mistake. Whatever the causes or political implications, black people make up close to half of Florida’s prison population. And we would expect the racial and ethnic balance of the purge list to be fairly close to that of the prison population. > > Yet with Hispanics, it is a different story. A way, way, way different story. > > About 11 percent of Florida’s prison population is Hispanic. So, what percentage of the voter purge list is Hispanic? > > Rounded off to the nearest percentage point, it is: zero. > > No kidding. Of 47,763 people on the list, only a smattering are Hispanic. They add up to about a tenth of a percent. > > That adamantly shouts that, at best, a huge mistake was made. Hispanics aren’t just under-represented, or even amazingly under-represented. Statistically, they are gone. > > I can’t blame anyone who thinks this was engineered purposely. Florida’s Hispanic voters traditionally tend to vote Republican in presidential elections, almost as reliably as black voters tend to support Democrats. A purge list with the expected percentage of black felons that omits almost all Hispanic felons is highly suspect. > > If blacks were absent from that list and Hispanics fully represented, you know what Republicans would say. Now, I’m not normally one for conspiracy theories, but this is a tad suspicious, is it not? Here we go 'round the mulberry bush again… Speak of bushes, the one in charge of Florida has no comment on the issue. Fortunately, we are no longer so naive. To quote a recent documentary, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/2 "2004-07-09T02:55:56Z")
The list obviously can’t be used, there needs to be a huge investigation, and some people need to spend a lot of time in jail over this. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/3 "2004-07-09T03:28:06Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The list obviously can’t be used, there needs to be a huge investigation, and some people need to spend a lot of time in jail over this. O\_O Well, I certainly agree about the investigation. The spectacular nothingness that resulted from the 2000 debacle shouldn’t be repeated. I’m kinda waiting to see how people respond to this list (SDMB isn’t helping thus far :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/4 "2004-07-09T15:51:21Z")
From [here](http://action.dscc.org/campaign/diebold1): > [@](#): > > . . .there is Walden O’Dell, the CEO of Diebold Inc. Diebold is the company that wants to get the contract to provide voting machines in every state for the 2004 election and O’Dell is raising money exclusively for President Bush and the Republican National Committee (RNC). O’Dell, in a fundraising letter on August 14th, committed “to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year” according to the Associated Press. In the 2002 election cycle, O’Dell gave $5,965 to the RNC while Diebold gave the RNC $95,000. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/5 "2004-07-09T16:22:46Z")
Unless I’m misreading that quote, I think it is fair to say that any person is going to have political views one way or another. Presumably, anyone interested in voting machines is probably interested in politics as a personal matter. The question is whether the two services can be reasonably seperated–and I kind of think so, actually. Unlike, say, rigging a slot machine, rigging elections by employees (after all, it would have to be a nearly company-wide conspiracy) doesn’t really serve an obvious direct interest unless they’re all going to get huge bonuses if BushCo wins. Not that it is impossible, or even unlikely to the point where we would disregard the theory, but it isn’t something to be anything more than very wary about–something that should be done with politics and government activities in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/6 "2004-07-09T16:50:31Z")
> [@](#): > > O’Dell, in a fundraising letter on August 14th, committed “to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year” … ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/7 "2004-07-09T19:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > July 3, 2004 | MIAMI – > > More than 2,100 Floridians who had their voting rights restored were included on a list of purported felons who are potentially ineligible to vote, a newspaper reported Friday. > > The names were on a Florida Division of Elections list of more than 47,000 people that was sent to county elections supervisors, who are expected to determine who should be removed from the rolls. [http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/07/03/florida/index\_np.html](http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/07/03/florida/index_np.html) The paper is the Miami Herald. It requires registration. They interviewed one guy on NPR who had voted in every election since 1986. And they were going to remove him. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/8 "2004-07-09T21:36:37Z")
As for the OP: Well, there must be some rational explanation for this. And, I for one, am anxious as all hell to hear it! As for **Reeder** ’s story: Well, I suppose the good news is that the error rate (of voters on the list but really should be eligible) is only about 4% (or, really at least 4%) which is already a big improvement over year 2000 when I seem to recall the error rate was on the order of something like 60-90%! For those who don’t know the story behind the Florida voter purge list in the 2000 election, go [here](http://www.gregpalast.com/contents.htm) and click on the Chapter 1 PDF for more than you ever wanted to know! [Here](http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/2002/11/04_Palast.html) is a more concise version from an interview with Greg Palast. Of course, Palast is not without his own ideological biases but the facts he presented have not, as far as I can find, been disputed. And, in fact there was an out-of-court settlement on the suit brought by the NAACP and others in regards to the voter list and other aspects of minority voter disenfranchisement in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/9 "2004-07-09T21:44:05Z")
Only 4%…2100 voters. I can’t prove it but I’d bet there were no republicans in that bunch. And remember Bush only won Florida by some 500 votes. ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/10 "2004-07-09T21:57:27Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > To quote a recent documentary, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice… Uhh… “Can’t be fooled again?” ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/11 "2004-07-09T22:03:10Z")
One of the article I read on this last night said that over 1600 of those 2100 were voters who had their rights restored, but who had not re registered (apperently as required by law) and so their names were still on the list. I have no idea why the number of Hispanics is so low. But one writer speculated that there may be a lot of crossover between Hispanics and those listed as non hispanic whites. That is, many hispanic convicts may simply be listed as white on the list. My appologies for not finding the links today. I looked last night trying to find an explanation for the Hispanic difference, assuming that most of you would see the 2100 and notice that the vast majority of those were simply not completly restored. It appears this story is a bit too new for better information. I also read that the local election boards are required to send a letter which gives the voters an opportunity to contest their inclusion on the purge list (and their non inclusion on the voter registration lists). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/12 "2004-07-10T06:33:42Z")
Do voters not have the right to swear themselves in? For example, in the recently concluded federal election here in Canada, if someone turned up at the polling booth and their name wasn’t on the list, all they had to do was produce two pieces of i.d. and sign a statutory declaration that they were eligible to vote. The theory is that it’s better to err on the side of letting people vote, even if some may not be eligible, than to have a fixed list that may bar an eligible person from voting. If ineligible people do vote, well, that’s something that may be relevant to a recount. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/13 "2004-07-10T19:27:20Z")
[Fla. Scraps Flawed Felon Voting List](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=7&u=/ap/felons_voting_hispanics) > [@](#): > > Florida elections officials said Saturday they would not use a disputed list of people believed to be convicted felons to purge voter rolls, acknowledging a flaw that kept some Hispanic felons off the list and could have allowed them to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/14 "2004-07-10T19:34:35Z")
Jebus, that’s frightening. Thank God for the eagle-eyed legislators, Dopers, newspeople, etc. who pay attention to these things. I think I need a drink. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/15 "2004-07-10T19:38:08Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > Do voters not have the right to swear themselves in? > > For example, in the recently concluded federal election here in Canada, if someone turned up at the polling booth and their name wasn’t on the list, all they had to do was produce two pieces of i.d. and sign a statutory declaration that they were eligible to vote. It’s one piece of ID, not two. I only produced a driver’s license. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/16 "2004-07-10T19:45:50Z")
Nope. At least in the areas I’ve voted in you were on the books several weeks ahead of time or you didn’t vote and tough noogies. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/17 "2004-07-10T20:08:51Z")
## **Jonathan Chance** is right. You have to be registered to vote in 49 states. ( There is one state ( I think it is one of the Dakotas ) that doesn’t require registration. In some places ( I think this includes Michigan ) they have “provisional voting”. That means a voter who is not on the list may fill out a ballot that is held out from the rest and only counted if the voter is subsequently proven to be eligible. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/18 "2004-07-11T04:06:33Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > [Fla. Scraps Flawed Felon Voting List](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=7&u=/ap/felons_voting_hispanics) > [@](#): > > the state’s sizable Cuban population, Hispanics in Florida have tended to vote Republican more than Hispanics nationally. The list had about **28,000 Democrats and around 9,500 Republicans** , with most of the rest unaffiliated. > > “Not including Hispanic felons that may be voters on the list … was an oversight and a mistake,” Gov. Jeb Bush said. “And we accept responsibility and that’s why we’re pulling it back.” > > Gov. Bush said the mistake occurred because two databases that were merged to form the disputed list were incompatible. Is it that hispanic felons are in a different database, or that republican felons are kept in a different database? Was it racial profiling or party profiling that messed up the merge? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/19 "2004-07-11T04:15:27Z")
If you’re challenged or not on the list in my state (NY), you vote by affadavit or special ballot, one filled out by hand and not using the machine everybody else does. Usually it’s just somebody who’s moved. I don’t know exactly when they’re counted. We are not permitted to even ask for ID. I don’t know the NY law re felons. I know in MA you only permanently lost your right to vote if your felony had been related to election fraud itself. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188/20 "2004-07-11T06:32:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s one piece of ID, not two. I only produced a driver’s license. hmmm. The Elections Canada folk out here here quoted as saying you needed two pieces. But then, they also think that the postal code where someone picks up their mail identifies the riding they’re in, so there is evidently some uncertainty in it all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-couldnt-happen-again-in-florida-could-it/254188.md?page=2)