Wel, I’m against the war, but I would be perfectly OK with those idiots getting killed, hopefully before they’ve reproduced.
Opposing the war is one thing, but allying oneself with a genuinely evil dictator is quite another.
BTWDiogenes, Neurotik is right, and you are wrong. Sure, Gandhi was an inspiring leader, but he had led India’s independence movement for 40 years with very little to show for it until Britain’s financial and military exhaustion after WWII forced it to grant India’s independence.
That’s what I said–didn’t you bother to read the line that you quoted?
Put it like this–opposing our involvement in Vietnam was honorable, but going to Hanoi and posing with the enemy troops, as Jane Fonda did, was treason. Same thing here. Opposing the war is correct in this instance, at least until Bush provides a convincing casus belli, but supporting that murderous sunuvabitch Hussein, as those wannabe “human shields” are doing, is just fucking wrong.
I genuinely don’t understand how their gesture will hurt their cause. In the worst case scenario, they die and become martyrs. What’s your interpretation?
That’s a good point Biggirl but would it not be in Saddam’s interests to let them follow through with their plan? He could exploit the PR in Iraq itself by citing it as evidence that the enemy is divided and that all the Iraqi people have to do is hold firm until the US’s resolve crumbles and he’ll doubtless know that if the US Government is caught killing its own citizens, it’ll fuel anti war sentiments overseas. He has nothing to gain by capturing them since there’s no way Bush’ll bargain for the lives of a few radical pacifists who chose to run into harms way. By similar logic Bush knows that any attempt to rescue these pacifists will probably be met with resistance to war supporters who would view them as traitors. Whichever way I look at it, I have difficulty forseeing a scenario whereby the warhawks would be able to use the protestors for their own ends. I know this is all hypothesising on my part but it makes sense to my addled mind at least
The way I see it is that this is all a big PR ploy by the pacifists. They will get in their big red buses, have the media follow them around while they put flowers in their hair and then when their big red bus gets hit by a rocket fired from a rooftop, the media will be there to record that too.
I do not see a huge red carpet of welcome being rolled out for these protesters. Hell, Hussain had western “human sheilds” during the last war. Remember that poor, terrified diplomat’s son he trotted out for the cameras? That sure had the exact opposite effect than expected, didn’t it?
How you can compare the two situations is beyond me. They are willing to volunteer their very lives for the cause of peace, but they are not, I repeat not killing innocent bystanders in the process.
Biggirl-PR ploy? Flowers in their hair?
Are there any other cheap jingoistic statements you wish to make? Look, if the “big red bus” gets hit by a rocket, they won’t get to grab precious media time away from Bill Gates or Winona Ryder-they will be dead.
You know what I’m doing Czar? I’m making fun of them. The way they chose to protest the war is silly and ineffective-- like putting flowers in their hair would be. More than ineffective actually, it is actually counterproductive.
So noble. So brave. So stupid.
In 1990, Saddam released all his Western hostages before Christmas, IIRC.
I think one can go over there and be a human shield without its being about Saddam Hussein. We forget that in event of war, a great many Iraqis who have absolutely zero choice of who their ‘leader’ is, will get killed, just like in 1991. To shield them makes a certain degree of sense.
But to me, it does look dumber than a box of rocks. I may respect their willingness to die for their cause, but I think that it’s dumb to put your life on the line for your cause in a way that is almost certain not to make any difference.
I’m not keen on drawing parallels to Gandhi and MLK here. They were trying to turn low-visibility struggles into high-visibility struggles, by highlighting the wrongs of their opponents in morally clear-cut situations. If they could get people to simply look at the issue, that was nine-tenths of their battle.
Here, the world’s already been staring at Iraq past the point where it’s ready to go watch the Super Bowl commercials with great relief. And it isn’t all that morally clear-cut. Nobody’s going to see what these folks are doing, or see what happens to them, and take it as a moral wake-up call. People are just going to see them as a bunch of naifs who decided to wander into a battlefield just before the shooting starts. And that’s why this is stupid.
They’re young, idealistic, they see the world in black and white and I remember being that way at their age. They might die, they might not but, you know what, they’ll do it anyway – and those damn Routemasters go on…and on….and on….
In fact they might even argue, is it anymore stupid than letting a son or daughter become a pawn in Georges’ Army ? Biggirl - I’d be interested in your view on this; you really think the kids in the US army will be fighting and dying for some less stupid reason - flowers or helmets, does it matter in this war ?
Anyway, either way, it’s the kids that die.
In '91, It was safer for a US serviceman to be in the Iraqi combat zone then to be back in the US. Mostly because of the lack of alcohol and cars, but still…
I do not think we should go to war with Iraq. Not now, not without UN backing. As I said in the OP, I think our President is a warmongering egotist.
This rant is not about whether or not a war with Iraq is a good idea or not. This rant is about what a very bad idea going to Iraq to become human shields is. What good is being noble and brave if what you are doing not only will not help but could very possibly hurt your cause?
Czar asked what could the anti-war protesters do? Well, Non-US citizen can keep the pressure up on their own countries government. We breastbeating Americans like to think that we don’t need no stinkin’ European backing. This is bullshit. World opinion is the biggest thing stopping our President from letting the bombs fly right now.
“Dear Ken, I’m very impressed to find out about what you are doing, and would like to express my strongest support and encouragement for these brave actions.” – Noam Chomsky
Gah, Chomsky is such an idiot there. These people going to be human shields will die, and frankly, I won’t shed a tear. If war occurs, they’re aiding and abetting the enemy. American aircraft won’t bomb the civilian populace, so these ‘shields’ will be lounging around Saddam’s military outposts and whatnot. They will be assissting a regime that has actively engaged in mass murder on numerous occasions. This is just sickening.
I read an interview with the leader the other day, and he’s a complete imbecile. He actually believes Bush may have been involved in plotting 9/11, so that Bush can institute a New World Order.
I know I won’t shed a tear if that asshat gets incinerated by a JDAM.
I don’t believe the “human shields” in the first Gulf War were volunteers. That is what makes this very offensive.
If you dislike George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al…fine. Demonstrate and mobilize . If you are opposed to war, I respect that as well. But for anyone to give any even indirect support to Saddam Hussein’s regime - well they loose all moral legitimacy as pacifists, human rights activists, or martyrs. Their actions worthless as far as I am concerned, and I am as opposed to the war as they are.
But fuck Saddam Hussein and his worthless regime. I would just rather keep having the UN inspectors permanently monitor Iraq, and let Hussein wither and rot in isolation and not dignify that tyrant with a full scale assault that will only kill innocent people and undeservedly make him a hero.
There is no enemy. The protesters are trying to prevent our country from committing an immoral and illegal act. The whole “my country, right or wrong” thing is a huge sack of shit. If my country is wrong then FUCK my country. I have no obligation to help my country commit evil acts and I have a moral obligation to obstruct those evil acts whenever possible.
