# It feels ridiculous to me that I'm struggling to maintain my lifestyle on 78K (gross) a year.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [October 11, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267 "2015-10-11T13:34:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/21 "2015-10-11T17:19:18Z")
In addition to the extemely high insurance payments:
Your stated “payroll” taxes are 30% of your income. You might check into whether you are filing under the most advantageous terms.
If you are someone’s W-2 employee, 30% sounds really high.
If you are self-employed:
Self-employment tax was lowered in 2011. The part substituting for the employers’ share is deductible, as is health insurance under many circumstances. You can also deduct (complicated computation) part of very high medical expenses.
State income taxes vary a lot, too – some adjustments to your Federal AGI might apply.
A change in business organization (such as from sole proprietorship to incorporation) might enable you to classify some expenditures as (deductible) business expenses rather than as personal spending.
There are several major tax preparation services with freebie versions (I favor the downloadable version of TaxAct) that can handle anything in Publication 17.
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### Author:  [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/22 "2015-10-11T17:26:05Z")
Just saw that you are in California. Try this tax calculator:
> **[California Income Tax Rates for 2023](http://www.tax-rates.org/California/income-tax#TaxCalc)**
>
> The California income tax has ten tax brackets, with a maximum marginal income tax of 13.30% as of 2023. Detailed California state income tax rates and brackets are available on this page.
With nothing but your gross income and the standard deduction for married filing jointly, it showed something like 2K for the state and 14K for the Feds.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/23 "2015-10-11T17:29:55Z")
I assume the OP was including Social Security and Medicare taxes in the payroll tax amount.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/24 "2015-10-11T17:33:53Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#):
>
> I can’t afford dental insurance or vision insurance. I can’t afford to save for retirement or maintain the home I own.
I don’t have dental insurance or vision insurance, I’m tapping my retirement and I am living in a rented duplex. That’s how I do it.
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### Author:  [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/25 "2015-10-11T17:35:03Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#):
>
> I keep hearing that health insurance is not supposed to cost more than 8% of your income, but I’m not finding this to be true, so I would love to understand this better, because with a premium of almost $19k a year, this is 3 times that.
It’s 9.56% and that’s costs based upon insurance **for you** , not you plus spouse. When you add a dependent, they can charge you whatever the hell they want to.
> [@](#):
>
> The 9.56% applies to self-only coverage and not the cost of a whole family plan.
> **[What is Affordable Employer Coverage Under ObamaCare?](https://obamacarefacts.com/affordable-employer-sponsored-coverage/)**
>
> Under ObamaCare employer-sponsored coverage must cost no more than 8% (adjusted each year), after the employer's contribution, to be considered affordable. If the amount exceeds 9.5% (adjusted each year), then the person can get an exemption to...
> [@](#):
>
> There are No Affordability Rules for Dependents of Employee
>
> Even though an employee’s coverage has to meet minimum affordability guidelines, the coverage for other family members on the employees employer-sponsored plan don’t.
> **[Family Affordability Glitch](https://obamacarefacts.com/2014/12/02/family-affordability-glitch/)**
>
> ObamaCare's family affordability glitch means family members with access to employer coverage costing less than roughly 9.5% of household income per member can't get subsidies on the Health Insurance Marketplace.
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> What are “DMV Fees” and why are you paying them every year?
Wow. First I learn some states don’t require an annual car inspection and now that there are apparently some that don’t have annual registration fees either. In NH there are two annual fees to register your car: half to the town you live in, and half to the NH DMV. Next you’ll tell me that property tax on a 200k house isn’t 4.5k/year in other places.
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#):
>
> Ok, so let’s consider:
>
> Property Taxes $3000.00
> DMV Fees 650.00
> Home Ins 1300.00
> Car Ins 2000.00
> PGE 2500.00
> Water/Trash 1500.00
PGE, is what, your electricity bill?
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### Author:  [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/26 "2015-10-11T17:35:18Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> I assume the OP was including Social Security and Medicare taxes in the payroll tax amount.
Oopsie, yeah, another 5K there. Total still below what the OP states she is paying, without anything but the rack rate adjustments.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/27 "2015-10-11T17:54:48Z")
I’m sorry. I feel for you. We make plenty of money, and I track every penny, but in our case daycare is so crazy expensive that I still can’t seem to get in a comfortable place with my finances.
[Learnvest.com](http://Learnvest.com) had been great for me in terms of tracking my spending and setting budgets. I find they are a better fit for me than Mint.
Sometimes it’s easier to make more money than spend less. Can you do some contract work? Work overtime? Make stuff to sell on Etsy? I have a fantasy of picking up a weekend shift at a restaurant- it’s easy to walk away with maybe $100 cash at the end of a shift, which could easily cover my food and other discretionary spending. In reality,
Sometimes I’m able to pick up some work from an old employer, and that helps.
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### Author:  [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/28 "2015-10-11T17:55:49Z")
> [@FeAudrey](#):
>
> Just saw that you are in California. Try this tax calculator:
>
> [California Income Tax Rates for 2024](http://www.tax-rates.org/California/income-tax#TaxCalc)
>
> With nothing but your gross income and the standard deduction for married filing jointly, it showed something like 2K for the state and 14K for the Feds.
If this is California, then these numbers just seem a little high to me. $650 for “DMV fees” could only be for two very late model vehicles. The car insurance then must be for full coverage. The health insurance, too, shouldn’t be that high. And definitely the taxes, for a single-earner family filing jointly. OP should maybe get an accountant.
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### Author:  [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/29 "2015-10-11T17:58:24Z")
I own my home. My kids are grown, so I have no deductions on my income. I fall in to the 15% bracket, so between that and Social Security, I don’t think I’m too far off.
PG&E is for electricity. Summer time rates here in this heat can be outrageous. My husband drives an old 2004 x3, we have a 1998 dodge pickup that we use for carting firewood and my 2012 VW.
I live within my means. I pay all my bills and am not in any debt, with the exception of my car.
I don’t travel. I don’t gamble. I just live a boring existence.
I don’t know how I’d feel about living in an apartment, to be honest. but as I said, my husband will not consider selling the house. If it would even sell anyway, houses on this street tend to sit on the market for months or years.
But all of that is really beside the point.
Of course I will give up something in order to continue to live within my means, but truthfully, I don’t think I’m asking for so much.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/30 "2015-10-11T18:07:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> It feels ridiculous to be crying poor with a gross yearly income of 78k, but after paying payroll taxes of approximately 23k and health insurance of $19k, I just can’t seem to make ends meet.
>
> My health insurance is going up another $200.00 a month in 2016.
>
> It’s going from $1355.00 a month to $1556.00 a month for my husband and I. Last years deductible was $4000.00. I don’t know what the new deductible will be.
You have a deductible for 4K and your health insurance is 19,000 per year? I'm a 57 YO non smoker male in general good health but heavier than I optimally should be and my Blue Cross Blue Shield BC-BS mid tier Obamacare policy with a 4K deductible is 310 per month or $ 3720 annually in a relatively expensive state (Maryland). It’s unsubsidized and I pay it directly. As an independent contractor real estate agent I’ve had a lot of high deductible plans over the years and this is really not a bad plan.
Your heath insurance premium is utterly insane. Are you a pair of older, overweight smokers with pre-existing conditions or what? There must be more to the story than you have relayed so far re this amazingly high insurance cost.
Have you talked to an accountant (not just a “tax preparer”) ? I think you should. Your taxes sound kind of high.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/31 "2015-10-11T18:24:15Z")
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> Wow. First I learn some states don’t require an annual car inspection and now that there are apparently some that don’t have annual registration fees either. In NH there are two annual fees to register your car: half to the town you live in, and half to the NH DMV.
In New York State, you pay $70 every two years. $650 per years just sounds outrageous to me. How has there not been some kind of public outcry over that.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/32 "2015-10-11T18:39:02Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> In New York State, you pay $70 every two years. $650 per years just sounds outrageous to me. How has there not been some kind of public outcry over that.
In some cases these are “no property tax” states where the income has to be made with lots of big fees.
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### Author:  [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/33 "2015-10-11T18:42:02Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#):
>
> Ok, so let’s consider:
>
> Property Taxes $3000.00
> DMV Fees 650.00
> Home Ins 1300.00
> Car Ins 2000.00
> PGE 2500.00
> Water/Trash 1500.00
>
> There’s how another 11k is spent. So now I have only a little over one thousand dollars a month left for everything else.
It should be $2,000 per month. 78K to start. 23K for taxes, 19k for health insurance, 11K for the above expenses. That leaves you with 25k per year. Divide that by twelve months gets you 2k per month. Unless there is another area where you are spending 12K per year? You made it sound like you had no car or house payment, so maybe I’m missing something.
$2k per month for two people after expenses is perfectly adequate.
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### Author:  [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/34 "2015-10-11T18:43:52Z")
Can you try using [NerdWallet](https://www.nerdwallet.com/health/insurance/?trk=nw_gn_2.0) to look up health insurance plans? California lets you participate in the healthcare market place and I can’t imagine what combination of statistical information for two people will yield you a plan for $1,500 per month with a $4,000 deductible.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/35 "2015-10-11T18:46:05Z")
> [@astro](#):
>
> In some cases these are “no property tax” states where the income has to be made with lots of big fees.
Sure, maybe, but the OP is also paying a significant property tax bill.
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### Author:  [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/36 "2015-10-11T18:50:55Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#):
>
> … My kids are grown, so I have no deductions on my income …
You and your husband each have a c. $6000 personal standard deduction; some filers will qualify for a larger amount if they itemize.
That you think that you have no deductions suggests that you might benefit from some tax expertise, even at the level of the software I recommended up-thread.
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### Author:  [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/37 "2015-10-11T19:29:27Z")
Yes, see an accountant. You also should be able to deduct that property tax, possibly some of the medical. I think you have more deductions than you realize.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/38 "2015-10-11T19:34:10Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Sure, maybe, but the OP is also paying a significant property tax bill.
New Hampshire has property taxes, but not income tax, or sales tax. That’s why we have high vehicle registration fees.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/39 "2015-10-11T19:37:02Z")
In my state, a high deductible plan for two people in their early 60s who are smokers is about $1400/month. Even if they are non-smokers, that only saves $200-300/month in premiums. So maybe this is the best the OP can do.
As a last resort, you can always leave the country. That is my plan if medical costs get too high, move to central america where a comprehensive health insurance plan is only $100/month and is pretty decent (just so long as you live in the capital city or a large city).
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-feels-ridiculous-to-me-that-im-struggling-to-maintain-my-lifestyle-on-78k-gross-a-year/734267/40 "2015-10-11T19:40:48Z")
What’s your mortgage, principal and interest, and your interest rate? How far into it are you?
Did you include retirement savings as part of your expenses (or subtraction from income)? Your health insurance seems really high. Does your employer offer cheaper options?
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