# It fell offa da truck: what crime was committed here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185 "2009-02-10T05:12:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/1 "2009-02-10T05:12:59Z")
I once had a hostel-mate who told a story about when he was living in New York or New Jersey somewhere, he happened to walk past a corner where a couple of guys were hurridly offloading boxes of (what appeared to be) video recorders ore something in return for cash. As he related it, it was a strictly fork-over-your-cash-take-your-box-and-get-the-hell-away-from-here kind of setup. In other words, he assumed he was going to get a great deal in purchasing stolen merchandise. He handed over a $100 bill (for what presumably looked like several hundred dollars worth of video equipment), took the box home and found that it was full of rocks to make it feel heavier. No video equipment. Guy was obviously a dishonest chump, but I wonder what crime the guys on the corner were committing, if any? Assuming that they never _said_ that the boxes contained video equipment. Hey, I was just selling these interesting rocks, you know? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/2 "2009-02-10T05:16:06Z")
Fraud? ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/3 "2009-02-10T05:28:08Z")
Your buddy had intent to possess stolen property. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/4 "2009-02-10T05:31:32Z")
I’m more interested in the guys who sold him the box of rocks. ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/5 "2009-02-10T05:34:07Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > _video recorders ore_ Your pal wasn’t swindled at all. He just didn’t have the patience to extract and refine the equipment. ETA: Just sayin’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/6 "2009-02-10T05:38:49Z")
This is a variation of the “white van scam”, so you might want to search for that and see if there’s any further information. ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/7 "2009-02-10T05:41:28Z")
In all seriousness, you can read up on Wikipedia’s fine article [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_van_speakers), if you are so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/8 "2009-02-10T05:47:19Z")
Thanks, but reading the link, it seems to me that there is some element of active verbal salesmanship/deceit: > [@](#): > > The operators claim that they work for an audio retailer or audio installer, and that, through some sort of corporate error (warehouse operator mistake, bookkeeping mistakes, computer glitches, etc.) or due to the client changing the order after supplies were purchased, they have extra speakers. I’m curious whether someone who _did not speak_ or at least made no representation whatsoever of what was in the box might still be committing a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/9 "2009-02-10T05:54:53Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I’m curious whether someone who _did not speak_ or at least made no representation whatsoever of what was in the box might still be committing a crime. Theft by deception. [Link.](http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/theft-by-deception/) There’s no requirement to speak, especially if the criminal takes actions which are intended to cause confusion or an incorrect impression in the victim’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/10 "2009-02-10T05:56:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Theft by deception. [Link.](http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/theft-by-deception/) There’s no requirement to speak, especially if the criminal takes actions which are intended to cause confusion or an incorrect impression in the victim’s mind. Oh. Well. Back to the drawing board, then. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/11 "2009-02-10T06:15:07Z")
Much depends on the detail of the circumstances, but in most jurisdictions it is possible to make a representation without the use of words. This happens all the time in legitimate business. You buy a box of cornflakes and wordlessly run it past the checkout operator. If you got it home and it was full of gravel, the supermarket couldn’t smugly claim there hadn’t been a representation as to the contents of the box. In the present case, if there was a uniform stack of similar boxes bearing apparently legitimate labels saying “Sanyo VCR” or whatever, then implied in the voiceless handing over of the box is the implication that the contents resemble the description on the label. There are potential (but not insurmountable) problems arising from the fact that your friend was attempting to receive stolen property, but that is a separate issue. Jurisdictions differ as to the elements of the offence of what I might call generically fraud. Some require the making of a “false pretence”. But this commonly doesn’t have to be orally expressed. Some simply require proof that the $100 was “dishonestly obtained”, which is potentially at least even less restrictive. No doubt there are many different ways of expressing these elements. But representations can be implied from the circumstances, and the law is usually not such an ass that it insists on proof of a clear verbal lie before there can be a fraud. In this case, without a clearer indication of the detail of the circumstances, it is difficult to be definitive, but the lack of an express verbal assertion as to the nature of the contents is not necessarily determinative. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/12 "2009-02-10T06:30:33Z")
Since New Jersey was mentioned here is the statute: > [@](#): > > NJSA 2C:20-4 > > A person is guilty of theft if he purposely obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he purposely: > a. Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention or other state of mind, and including, but not limited to, a false impression that the person is soliciting or collecting funds for a charitable purpose; but deception as to a person’s intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; > > b. Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or > > c. Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship. > The term “deceive” does not, however, include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or puffing or exaggeration by statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. NJ does not have a statute called “fraud”. Most cases that you would consider to be fraud fall under this statute. Computer/internet fraud falls under a different statute. The fact that the victim may have thought he was receiving stolen property is not a defense. Most cons work because of the greed of the victim. Doesn’t make them legal. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/13 "2009-02-10T07:35:56Z")
In the UK there’s a crime known as “stealing by finding” which seems to have been introduced under the Theft Act 1964. This has been used by zealous rozzers for prosecuting people who nick things out of skips that other people have thrown out. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/14 "2009-02-10T07:44:32Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > This has been used by zealous rozzers for prosecuting people who nick things out of skips that other people have thrown out. [“Shat on a turtle!”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgPH0tYXJrA) (sorry, all in good fun, I think I get your . . . general . . . gist of things) ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/15 "2009-02-10T09:17:57Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > [“Shat on a turtle!”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgPH0tYXJrA) > > (sorry, all in good fun, I think I get your . . . general . . . gist of things) The translation, of course, is that “This charge has been used by zealous members of the constabulary to prosecute people who have taken serviceable items without permission from rubbish bins.” Bear in mind that the “Accidentally throwing out perfectly good merchandise for an accomplice (or the perpetrator) to recover later” _modus operandi_ is well-known in retail loss prevention circles; which is (I would suspect) the intent of this law- along with having something to charge people who are Known To The Police with when they are found in possession of things they are unable to provide receipts for. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/16 "2009-02-10T09:39:09Z")
My friend once bought a brand new laptop off three men in a car. When he got his brand new laptop bag home it was full of lemonade bottles. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/17 "2009-02-10T09:57:52Z")
I am not a lawyer (and do appreciate reading the statutes posted 🙂 ). From my point of view: the guys on the van are crooks; either selling stolen goods or hustling - the guy buying is wrong; either dishonestly recieving stolen property or being greedy and foolish As the legendary Barnum said ‘there’s one born every minute’. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/18 "2009-02-10T12:37:11Z")
here, at any rate, ‘stealing by finding’ includes person who does not take reasonable steps to try to trace the owner of the property - normally, but not exclusively, by reporting the matter to the police. In the dumpster scenario, this would include a courtesy call on the front office to ask if he can rummage in the dumpster. The OP’s scenario would be ‘obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception’. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/19 "2009-02-10T13:08:15Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > My friend once bought a brand new laptop off three men in a car. When he got his brand new laptop bag home it was full of lemonade bottles. I always wondered what to do when life handed you lemonade to start with 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185/20 "2009-02-10T14:05:07Z")
TAL did a great segment on [Suckers](http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=222). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-fell-offa-da-truck-what-crime-was-committed-here/485185.md?page=2)