# It funny and sad to see retail try to save itself **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580 "2020-02-26T22:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/61 "2020-02-28T21:18:14Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Plus was there ever a time where Home Depot/Loews were known for great service? Only from the guys hanging out in the parking lot. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/62 "2020-02-28T21:22:40Z")
I have no idea how the chain is performing financially, but Kohl’s has come up with a really clever way to benefit from partnering with Amazon, rather than fighting them tooth and nail. The biggest pain with buying online is when you have to return something, so every Kohl’s near us has an Amazon return desk. You bring your item, get the code scanned off your phone, and they handle all the re-packing and return shipping. And your receipt has a coupon, so maybe you buy something in the store instead of ordering it from Amazon. It’s a smart way to get people into their store, and that’s half the battle. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/63 "2020-02-28T21:42:42Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Which part- the good job market? That’s hard to argue- we’re near a 50 year low unemployment rate. Which then means that what he’s saying could actually be true- why would someone with knowledge stick around and work at Home Depot (for example), if the job market is tight enough such that there are higher paying jobs elsewhere with their skills in mind? Considering that construction jobs pay more than Home Depot and are also generally suitable for the sort of people who would make highly skilled HD workers, it’s entirely logical and reasonable to think that’s exactly what would happen. > > That’s how the labor market generally works- the more skill/specialized/unique knowledge you have that’s useful, the more you get paid, as the assumption is that the rarity of your knowledge/experience/skill is commensurate with your degree of skill. So a Home Depot guy with relevant home remodeling experience or construction experience may well make more money working in construction, or at a more specialized store, like a commercial supplier, leaving Home Depot with the people willing to work for their measly money. > > That’s why a burger flipper makes minimum wage, and Gerrit Cole makes millions- there is ONE player with Cole’s skills and abilities, and that’s him. It’s why no major league team will pay me a dime to play baseball- I stink! > > Meanwhile, there are literally hundreds of millions of people who can watch a timer and flip a burger. So sports owners are willing to pay Cole a LOT, while that burger flipper can easily be replaced with someone else willing to work for minimum wage, if the burger flipper doesn’t perform, doesn’t show up, has a bad attitude, etc… And that also means that there’s no incentive to pay him more- why would you, if you can replace him with someone equally capable of flipping burgers for minimum wage? > > The flip side is that when things go sideways economically, those construction jobs may dry up; at that point, Home Depot can hire that guy for their measly wage, as that’s what the market will bear for that particular skill and experience level in lieu of available construction jobs. I believe the point was that Home Depot has no reason to hire the ex-construction guy as opposed to the ex-burger flipper or the ex-PhD. In fact a bad economy will just flood them with applicants, who will be fed into the corporate resume filter which will select the guy in the suit with no misspellings who has a masters in business. And no matter who they hire, they won’t bother to tell the guy they put at the plumbing department desk where the teflon tape is. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/64 "2020-02-28T22:00:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Would you have spent more money if the employee knew where the teflon tape was? > > These policies only hurt them if customers go elsewhere to spend their money. It does happen, but customers are VERY forgiving of shoddy service if they can save a couple of bucks. I buy a lot of stuff online now rather than at Home Depot since it is a pain to shop there. Even if it costs me a couple bucks more. I don’t forgive shoddy service. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/65 "2020-02-28T22:05:37Z")
OTOH Duluth Trading Company, a company specializing in high quality work pants and clothing, which was formerly just catalog and online, now has a chain of stores nationwide. They sell damn good work pants. Very durable with warranties. But you need to try them on first to get a correct fit. Another is Bass Pro Shops and Cabellas which started as one big store in Springfield Missouri but now is nationwide. They sell all kinds of camping and sporting goods plus they have all these great wildlife exhibits plus big aquariums. They also have a restaurant. So going to Bass Pro is an experience. They are about the only store left where you can buy all kinds of guns including handguns. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/66 "2020-02-28T22:07:36Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My understanding is that, once upon a time, Home Depot did strive to have at least some associates who were particularly knowedgeable about home improvement – they liked to hire semi-retired contractors and handymen, so that customers could actually get advice in-store. > > But, those associates tended to cost more, and at some point (at least a decade ago, and probably longer than that), Home Depot largely got rid of those kinds of employees. They still have those guys. You just have to know what time they will be working. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/67 "2020-02-28T22:56:48Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > 2 - Companies opening new brick and mortar stores are 5x the number of companies closing stores (75% of closures are from some small number of companies). But new store opening tends to be smaller. > > 3 - Restaurant sales (part of retail), represent strong growth (implies shifting spending patterns from goods to experiences is a significant factor in the shifting retail landscape) Do you have cites for these? Not sure what the 5x figure would represent. Dollars, square footage, etc.? In the US at least, I certainly do not get the impression that the number of store openings is greater than closings. If that were the case, one wouldn’t see the enormous amount of empty retails space one does. Are restaurants strong growth? If that’s the case it’s new good news to me, as I’ve heard mostly about downward pressure on restaurants. I subscribe to email newsletters about the restaurant business (Eater, etc.), and it’s a lot of bad news with some good. But I don’t know about the total health of the industry. > [@](#): > > 4 - Brick and mortar presence appears to increase online and overall (e.g. Target) What do you mean? That having brick and mortar boosts one’s online presence? Not trying to be negative, just requesting clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/68 "2020-02-28T23:22:34Z")
I wasn’t clear in what I wrote, but I don’t find the Retail Apocalypse to be funny-haha. But I do find the spin by companies that pretend they have a chance to turn things around when they don’t to be cheesy-funny-sad. I think we need to distinguish between retail in the sense of how well brick-and-mortar retail seems to be doing when one is out and about (pretty much shit, is my impression these days) and how retail is doing as an industry, _including companies that make stuff to buy._ For example: > **[Forever 21 Filed For Bankruptcy But Will Live On With New Owners](https://www.npr.org/2020/02/20/807755366/forever-21-filed-for-bankruptcy-but-will-live-on-with-new-owners)** > > Three companies have announced that they are acquiring the retailer aimed at teens and young people, and plan to continue to operate its U.S. and international stores. Forever 21 is both a brick-and-mortar store and a company that puts out its own products. It hasn’t been doing so hot. And I think the trend for retail in both of the sense above is that _it ain’t gonna be doing so hot._ over the long term. Some general thoughts of mine as to where things are going: 1. Mall are never coming back. The mall concept depends on anchors, which were traditionally department stores and large clothing stores, and right now anchors are dying and there is nothing to replace them. 2. Department stores are dying a rapid to slow death, depending on the store. Even Kohl’s is doing pretty bad: > **[Kohl’s Stock Meltdown Shows It Can’t Escape Discounting Trap](https://fortune.com/2019/11/19/kohls-earnings-stock-meltdown/)** > > The chain says it needs to be price competitive to win customers coming to its stores for Amazon returns. 1. Fashion changes very slowly these days, and people spend a fraction of what they used to on clothing: **Data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics show that in 1987 US shoppers devoted about 5% of their discretionary spending to clothes. In 2017 it was about 2%.** > **[US consumer spending hasn’t changed much in 30 years, with one exception](https://qz.com/1631310/us-consumer-spending-has-remained-the-same-with-one-exception)** > > Conventional wisdom says millennials are totally different from previous consumers. Deloitte spent a year compiling a report to see what has and hasn't changed. 1. We now have a huge stock of used _everything_ of decent quality and modernity (because fashion changes slowly). People are keeping things longer (e.g., mobile phones) and feel fine with buying used from Goodwill, etc., when they need something. At the same time, retro is in as well. I have furniture in my apartment from the 1940s to recent times, and I’m happy with it. 2. Everything is commoditized to the point where “pretty good stuff” has obviated the need for “really good stuff.” Example: A guy who ran a coffee shop near my apartment said he was doing great until 2008. That’s when the economy tanked, of course, but he also cited it as when the Keurig cups came out. People can get a cup of coffee in an instant that’s quite close to premium. And every category across the board is like that. I buy Perry Ellis jeans at TJ Maxx not because I’m cheap but because the quality is fine and they look good. So on and so forth. Let me put it another way. If you were going to open a shop, restaurant, anything with current technologies, what could you possibly do that would be a surefire hit? It’s hard to think of something, at least for me. Saying “Category X but _really_ caring about the customer and offering great, great service” doesn’t cut it. Because commoditization. Anyhow, some more thoughts for you all. Thank you for your excellent contributions thus far! ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/69 "2020-02-28T23:50:06Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Do you have cites for these? > > Not sure what the 5x figure would represent. Dollars, square footage, etc.? In the US at least, I certainly do not get the impression that the number of store openings is greater than closings. If that were the case, one wouldn’t see the enormous amount of empty retails space one does. Here’s one link: [https://chainstoreage.com/real-estate/ihl-study-five-retailers-opening-stores-for-every-retailer-closing-stores](https://chainstoreage.com/real-estate/ihl-study-five-retailers-opening-stores-for-every-retailer-closing-stores) The 5x is count of companies, not count of stores. Basically the majority of store closures are in a small number of companies that are closing many stores. Regarding square footage: new stores do tend to be smaller, so there is definitely a shift. My point was just that it’s more complex than many of the headlines. > [@](#): > > Are restaurants strong growth? If that’s the case it’s new good news to me, as I’ve heard mostly about downward pressure on restaurants. I subscribe to email newsletters about the restaurant business (Eater, etc.), and it’s a lot of bad news with some good. But I don’t know about the total health of the industry. I did read “strong growth” recently somewhere, but googling around I see more evidence for moderate but continued growth. > **[National Restaurant Association report projects 4% industry-wide sales growth...](https://www.qsrweb.com/news/national-restaurant-association-report-projects-4-industry-wide-sales-growth-this-year/)** > > The National Restaurant Association projected 4% restaurant industry sales growth this year across service categories to a total national of a record $899 billion. And despite rumblings of a recession in the making for this year or next, the NRA's… > [@](#): > > What do you mean? That having brick and mortar boosts one’s online presence? > > Not trying to be negative, just requesting clarification. Yes. Consumers like having a brick and mortar store even if they are also purchasing online. Some reasons (based on what I’ve read): to touch and see product, to try product (e.g. bike), to return product. > **[Retail apocalypse that wasn't: triving brick and morter - Operations and...](https://blog.bindy.com/the-retail-apocalypse-that-wasnt-brick-and-mortar-is-thriving/)** > > Physical retail isn’t just alive and well, it’s thriving — and we’ve got the numbers to prove there is no retail apocalypse.  There is definitely a significant shift going on, but it’s more complex than thinking that all retail is simply shifting to e-commerce. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/70 "2020-02-29T00:22:15Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > There is definitely a significant shift going on, but it’s more complex than thinking that all retail is simply shifting to e-commerce. Cool, thanks for the info. Yes, I think a countervailing trend is web presences opening/buying B&M, such as Warby Parker opening stores in malls and Amazon buying Whole Foods. The cool thing about that for Internet plays is that they can be super-super choosy about where they open and scale very slowly. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/71 "2020-02-29T00:25:37Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > 1. Mall are never coming back. The mall concept depends on anchors, which were traditionally department stores and large clothing stores, and right now anchors are dying and there is nothing to replace them. On this point: [Dead Malls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_mall): _The year 2007 marked the first time since the 1950s that no new malls were built in the United States._ ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/72 "2020-02-29T03:30:54Z")
My first local mall was dead in 1990, replaced by the New Mall. I started shopping on Amazon in 1999. Why? Because local record stores only stocked major label mass appeal stuff. Same for book stores. And the college book store. Instead of using my student credit card or waiting until mid semester for a financial aid refund to purchase a $200 text several weeks after it was needed, I could go on Amazon and spent 70-80 bucks, then 2 months later I could resell it for 50-60. I moved in 2005, but on my visit back last year it seemed the New Mall (30 years old) was doing OK. A lot of anchors had gone out of business but they were mostly replaced. It was odd seeing a post office and library in there. Some of the clothing places had consolidated. There’s a new larger movie theater. Not a lot of traffic, though. When I was a teen everyone was there every weekend and some times on week nights. We all had friends who worked at the food court or part time at the movie theater and whatnot. Then you had the senior walkers. At least I didn’t see any leaky ceilings (the old mall had that for years) or anything. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/73 "2020-02-29T03:44:47Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > There has been a fundamental shift in employees from the “olden” days. In the past, sales clerks knew more about their products than I did. This situation has reversed, and I find myself facing friendly, but inexperienced min-wage workers who, quite frankly, are in my way. When I was working at Circuit City in 2000, this was their solution to stay in business, because it’s what customers wanted. We went from having all products in the warehouse and requiring sales person interaction for all purchases beyond music/software and some accessories to a hybrid Best buy/Walmart model. They fired all commissioned sales persons who made over a certain amount per hour (which meant they were knowledgeable and effective) and gave raises to all employees on “subsidy” (this meant their commissions were under the minimum which I believe was 1.5x minimum wage, and the employer had to subsidize them) and changed their roles. Being a retail sales associate at Circuit City was the hardest interview process and most training I’ve ever had for a job. You had to know everything about the products, both in general and specific to the model and all features. We had to go out of town for “professional sales training” and had to study thick books on everything, attend meetings with vendor reps (I remember when Verizon came into existence for example and I had to attend a meeting with them), learn new product classes, etc. In 1 year we 2 complete remodels based on changes in philosophy and they changed everything to basically being cashiers who needed to push the cheap replacement plans. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/74 "2020-02-29T04:04:46Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > I do think that after the “trend” of buying clothes online passes, that at least will come back to brick and mortar. Off the rack clothes just don’t fit well and it’s mandatory that they be tried on. Right now what people are doing is buying them online, trying them on at home and then returning what doesn’t fit. Which might often be the entire order. Depends, maybe for women. But even then I think some of those subscription services might just take off, where they send you clothes and you try them on and send them back. I’m a jeans and t-shirt guy. I’m pretty much online (mostly for stores that exist in brick n mortar, too, though) or Walmart/Target. There’s not much mall in-between area for me, and I don’t really try things on. If I need a cheap shirt, I can run in Target. If I need jeans I go to J Crew online. Also buy interesting shoes there. I know my sizes, and their “true fit” estimator thing is pretty good, too. I know a certain style and number of jeans in a 34/32 fit perfectly and I wait for the sales emails and coupons and use my store credit card and everything is good. Then I’ll even spend 50 bucks (though I usually use coupons) for an 80sTee (online store) or whatever. Nothing at the mall really serves these purposes for me. Most stores don’t even stock the size I wear in socks so I might as well hit Amazon for those. Reminds me of 20 years ago when you couldn’t find good music in person so you hit Amazon and/or Napster because you weren’t interested in buying what stores tried to tell you to buy. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/75 "2020-02-29T04:20:41Z")
Have any of you been to a big [Bass Pro Shop](https://www.basspro.com/shop/en) or Cabellas? Another big store/experience, have you been to a big [Scheels](https://www.scheels.com/) Sporting goods store with the Ferris wheel in them? Ever been to an Ikea furniture store? The one here in Kansas city is always packed. Another trend, have any of you been to an Escape Room business or gone to that new trend - axe throwing? Just saying their are always new trends coming and going. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/76 "2020-02-29T04:23:33Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I have had that happen once or twice when ordering products online. It showed up a few weeks later and appeared to have been shipped directly from China. One time it was from some other online store, but it’s happened with certain Amazon Marketplace sellers as well. Most of the products fulfilled by Amazon are FBA (fulfilled by amazon for 3rd party sellers) and most of those are from China. If you run a FBA based business, you have your suppliers in China manufacturer, package, label/barcode and ship it to Amazon. I open and stock these products at my night job working in an amazon warehouse. You also have online drop shippers. BTW, I love how people act like shopping at Amazon is only enriching Bezos (I agree it does disproportionately) and that shopping locally is saving low-wage local jobs when I pretty much AM your local low wage employee in 2020. And I’ve got 4000 co-workers. In fact in my community, if you are trying to save local retail/grocery clerk jobs and the like you are advocating for lower paying jobs with lower hours and benefits that often require open availability. I saw a hiring sign at Kroger, offering a starting wage $7-9/hr less than what I make for basically “stocking shelves.” And fulltime at Amazon is a 3 or 4 day a week set schedule. None of this open availability to maybe work 30 hours a week and hopefully qualify for Medicaid and Food stamps stuff (or have 2-3 part-time jobs with conflicting schedules) like most low wage retail. I’m not saying Amazon taking over the world is great overall, but at this point many of your local community are already working there in many places or will soon. It’s not just investment bankers and suits. And I worked retail, restaurants, and the like before online shopping was ubiquitous the jobs were low paying and sucked for the most part then and you always had “Mom and Pops” who treated employees like shit. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/77 "2020-02-29T04:51:08Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > The major successful mall here has been upgrading and renovating and the successful stores seem to be: > > Restaurants with experience beyond simple sit down eating, such as outside cafe areas, play areas for kids, sports bar sections, etc. > Shop-a-tainment like Build-a-Bear that can’t be replicated online. > Physical storefronts that can be loss-leaders for online value stream, e.g. Apple. I’m not sure I understand, how exactly are physical Apple stores loss-leaders? ---
**Author:** ![cmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@cmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmore)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/78 "2020-02-29T08:28:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > When you say “the other day” do you mean 1988? I mean within the past couple of weeks. on who’s planet does the other day mean 1988? ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/79 "2020-02-29T14:48:52Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > I didn’t have as much of a problem with the pricing change as most people. I actually thought it was a good idea. I used to do most of my clothes buying at Penney’s, especially their Arizona jeans and their Oxford cloth dress shirts. It would drive me crazy to have to wait until the clothes I needed were “on sale” so that I could get a shirt or jeans for $20 instead of the marked-up $40. > > But around the same time as the change in pricing model, they also cut store inventory roughly in half. And they remodeled the stores to look more spacious, when really all they were doing was covering up the fact that there was less merchandise to display. > > I used to have a whole closet full of Oxford shirts in literally every color of the rainbow. Now all I can find at Penney’s are white, blue, and a hideous bright pink. And the only Arizona jeans I can find anymore are the ones targeted for people half my age – no more plain old relaxed fit boot cut jeans, just the baggy ripped ones that look like they’ve been soaking in grease. > > So I quit shopping at Penney’s, and apparently so did everyone else, because our local Penney’s closed down about 2-3 years ago. But when I have an opportunity to go to a Penney’s in some other city, it’s still the same crappy selection, so I’ve pretty much given up on them. I grew up with Penney’s clothes; there was even one in a mall in Belgium close enough to our home in the NL that we went there for back-to-school each year we lived there. I still liked them as an adult until I moved to Phoenix and needed new clothes for the new school year because the moving company didn’t move our stuff in a timely manner. Phoenix, AZ, in August, and the only clothes appropriate for a teacher that JCP had in my size were black polyester. > [@JcWoman](#): > > I disagree with this. I think it’s a consequence of store owners and/or management hiring the cheapest workers they can (i.e. minimum wage) and not bothering to train them or motivate them. I know margins are thin, I’m right there in it. But when my shop grows large enough to support paid staff, I’m going to pay them properly for the work they do and treat them like professionals… It the professional part that makes retail such a problem. It’s not just management that refuses to treat employees well; customers can be some of the worst people in the world. You don’t feel like a professional when a customer abuses you for not giving them exactly what they want (when in reality it doesn’t exist at all) or when you do what you were trained to do. It’s even worse when management sucks up to customers and throws you under the bus. You don’t feel like a professional when your schedule is arbitrarily changed every week and you don’t get to know when you are going to work until the last minute. If you can’t make any plans for the future because you don’t know if yo have to work, you feel…I can’t describe it. Being forced to work on days you asked off on pain of losing your job; given “rewards” for working on holidays that turn out to be worthless because you can’t use them on the only day available (you get an extra discount on December 1! Who cares if you have to pay rent that day?); seeing management continue abuses after the corporation “cleans up” the facility (only the top manager was escorted out; all her partners in crime kept their jobs and kept up their misdeeds)…Maybe those aren’t realities in mom-and-pop establishments, but in big corporations, that’s what you get, and professionalism is only lip service. > [@Mallard](#): > > Buying on line is all well and good when you know what it is you’re ordering. However, I prefer to see what I’m buying first and I can’t even imagine buying clothes or shoes that I can’t try on first. I have found shoes in my size in a brick-and-mortar store twice in the last decade. Even if the stores carry the brands and models I want I have to special-order my size. I have found a specialty shop that carried a bra I could wear, so I am looking forward to going back and finding better ones. Ordering a bra online is hell. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/80 "2020-02-29T18:31:13Z")
> [@cmore](#): > > I mean within the past couple of weeks. > > on who’s planet does the other day mean 1988? The Planet of the Japes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580.md?page=5)