# It funny and sad to see retail try to save itself **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580 "2020-02-26T22:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/81 "2020-02-29T18:41:31Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Re: Home Depot employees. > > I once asked the person in the plumbing department where the teflon tape was. He had no idea what I was talking about. I eventually found it and showed it to him. He didn’t care. > > And a bunch of other stories like that. > > The people running Home Depot have no idea how badly their “get the cheapest warm bodies we can find” policy is hurting them. I had a buddy who worked at Loews during college, he’s damn good with all the lawn and garden stuff and can talk your ear off about plants and soil, but he got forced into other parts of the store far too often and was completely ignorant about those areas. It just sucks that someone who’s so smart has to look like an idiot in front of customers because someone called in sick with brown bottle flu. ---
**Author:** ![drivekiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@drivekiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drivekiller)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/82 "2020-02-29T19:02:27Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Huh. I was talking to a friend recently and he typed: > _Ugh. So depressing. I’m at Fry’s at 6pm on a Friday and there are maybe 5 other people in the whole huge place. Its silent in here except for the music > Shelves hardly stocked_ > …I didn’t think much of it since I don’t think much about Fry’s in general but now I read this thread, so there ya go. Yup. No longer possible to buy an enterprise class hard drive for your failing server on Saturday afternoon in Los Angeles. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/83 "2020-02-29T22:04:23Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > But even then I think some of those subscription services might just take off, where they send you clothes and you try them on and send them back. This process is already pretty typical of e-commerce for apparel and footwear. Typical return rate for e-commerce in general is around 20%, and for apparel it can be as high as 30%, mostly due to fit. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/84 "2020-02-29T23:06:45Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > Karma’s a bitch. The malls killed off the downtowns. Now the internet is killing off the malls. Someday, something we can’t picture right now will kill off internet shopping. I’d like to hope the downtowns will return to do the job… My suburban Los Angeles hometown grew some “shopping centers” in the 1950s. To keep downtown from suffocation, the city re-did its core business street into an open-air pedestrian mall. Santa Cruz did something similar. How to beat the malls? Be one! My SciFi prediction of what will follow “internet shopping”: It’ll move from phone and keyboard devices to embedded neural links, en route to humanity becoming a hive-mind. Visualize a desire and a drone will deliver, or your 3D printer will churn it out. > [@Aeschines](#): > > If you were going to open a shop, restaurant, anything with current technologies, what could you possibly do that would be a surefire hit? It’s hard to think of something, at least for me. Saying “Category X but _really_ caring about the customer and offering great, great service” doesn’t cut it. Because commoditization. The new auto repair shop up here in the boonies is doing well; the tea shop next door, not so well. Businesses that won’t see much online competition: Tattoo, massage, and barber / beauty parlors. Super-cheap eateries, with three burgers or tacos for a buck. Physical therapy clinics. Backup generator sales and installation are super-hot in California now. A music store / coffee shop in the nearest metropolis is packed with group sessions: 'ukulele night, banjo night, Celtic night, etc. Find a niche and fill it. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > Typical return rate for e-commerce in general is around 20%, and for apparel it can be as high as 30%, mostly due to fit. How much of that returned apparel goes straight to landfill? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/85 "2020-03-01T07:07:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think in part this is a consequence of a good job market, so the experienced staff at these retail stores are able to get better jobs elsewhere. During the next recession, you may see more overqualified retail employees. Some stores are deliberately choosing to hire people who don’t know what they’re talking about, and not just because they’re cheaper. For example, the local Radio Shack for years had a standing policy that if you knew anything about electronics, they would not hire you; somebody somewhere in management had decided that you might recommend the wrong stuff and get them sued, so they only hired people who could not possibly provide meaningful advice to customers. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/86 "2020-03-01T15:31:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ever been to an Ikea furniture store? The one here in Kansas city is always packed. IKEA is \*huge \*in Europe. You can order the stuff online, but people seem to prefer to trudge through the store and actually see first what they wanted to buy. It also helps that each store has a decent restaurant. But retailing is a business in which you have to be good at business, as well as recognizing trends. To give an example; Germany has two large department store chains. One of them was in the news for almost a decade due to its managerial problems. Just to make it more fun, the owner of the chain seemed to have a habit of marrying her managers, who turned out to be real turkeys. The press had a field day. Both chains have cut down the number of stores, and maybe they will amalgamate one day, but perhaps they will simply resize. Looking at what they closed down, it seems that towns need to be above a critical size to support a department store. Needless to add, both chains have an online presence. Poland is an interesting comparison, as a business model. Shopping in the communist era was a dreary business. Also, there were no department stores. Instead, the big box stores and the supermarkets came in, often calling themselves hypermarkets as they had a much wider range of items, including non-food. The mail order days of the 50’s and 60’s also passed eastern Europe by, but many people shop online. Being able to shop easily thoughout the EU means that you can buy from another country if you can’t find what you want elsewhere. You get malls over here, often as mini-malls (and often with exactly the same shops as in the next town). The malls tend to have one big main shop, usually a supermarket, and include eateries, often more exotic ones such as Asian. From what I have seen of (the few) companies that retrenched or went bust, it came down to bad management and/or bad business decisions. Does the USA have a situation that is applicable throughout the world? Retailing is becoming increasingly similar wherever you are. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/87 "2020-03-01T17:56:49Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Some stores are deliberately choosing to hire people who don’t know what they’re talking about, and not just because they’re cheaper. For example, the local Radio Shack for years had a standing policy that if you knew anything about electronics, they would not hire you; somebody somewhere in management had decided that you might recommend the wrong stuff and get them sued, so they only hired people who could not possibly provide meaningful advice to customers. Holy mother of cats, is that true? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/88 "2020-03-01T18:04:28Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Holy mother of cats, is that true? I don’t know if that is true, but too often when I use to use Radio Shacks a lot the employees knew next to nothing, not even where they stored stuff like a null modem cable or LED replacement indicator lights. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/89 "2020-03-01T19:04:11Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I buy a lot of stuff online now rather than at Home Depot since it is a pain to shop there. Even if it costs me a couple bucks more… I buy it at the relatively-local hardware store in a nearby village that actually has a live downtown. They not only know where the Teflon tape is; they know whether I should actually use Teflon tape for a particular application I’m intending to use it for. And, on the occasions when I check, it may well be as cheap as online or at Home Depot. – Some of the downtown areas around here are actually seeing something of a resurgence. Because many malls are dying doesn’t necessarily mean that brick-and-mortar is. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/90 "2020-03-01T19:48:54Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Some stores are deliberately choosing to hire people who don’t know what they’re talking about, and not just because they’re cheaper. For example, the local Radio Shack for years had a standing policy that if you knew anything about electronics, they would not hire you; somebody somewhere in management had decided that you might recommend the wrong stuff and get them sued, so they only hired people who could not possibly provide meaningful advice to customers. Is it more that they don’t want to hire the person who would be out the door in 2 weeks? Or, they don’t want an ambitious go getter? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/91 "2020-03-01T20:47:47Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > But retailing is a business in which you have to be good at business, as well as recognizing trends. To give an example; Germany has two large department store chains. One of them was in the news for almost a decade due to its managerial problems. Just to make it more fun, the owner of the chain seemed to have a habit of marrying her managers, who turned out to be real turkeys. The press had a field day. Both chains have cut down the number of stores, and maybe they will amalgamate one day, but perhaps they will simply resize. Looking at what they closed down, it seems that towns need to be above a critical size to support a department store. Needless to add, both chains have an online presence. Karstadt and Kaufhof? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/92 "2020-03-01T21:01:34Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > I disagree with this. I think it’s a consequence of store owners and/or management hiring the cheapest workers they can (i.e. minimum wage) and not bothering to train them or motivate them. I know margins are thin, I’m right there in it. But when my shop grows large enough to support paid staff, I’m going to pay them properly for the work they do and treat them like professionals. > > … That’s what I want to do with my employees, when I get them. I don’t know what industry you are in, but it is likely a losing proposition because of this: > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Would you have spent more money if the employee knew where the teflon tape was? > > These policies only hurt them if customers go elsewhere to spend their money. It does happen, but customers are VERY forgiving of shoddy service if they can save a couple of bucks. Agreed. As much as people complain about the good ole days when you could walk into a hardware store and have a guy hand you everything you need for a home improvement job, the data doesn’t bear out that people really care so much as to spend significantly more at a shop that does provide the service. They go to Home Depot or Amazon to save a few bucks. Plus you can watch YouTube videos to do almost anything, and these old handyman can sometimes give you dangerously outdated advice. Sure I might buy a few screws, some tape, and pipe fitting when I need it on a Saturday afternoon and water is gushing out of a pipe, but when it comes to a big ticket item, I go with Amazon. Seven dollars worth of supplies won’t keep this store in business. It’s not that I don’t want to support the local guy, but on Amazon I have hundreds of choices to his three. I get exactly what I want and it is on my doorstep in two days. Business can fight this trend or recognize it, but blaming customers is a losing strategy. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/93 "2020-03-01T21:04:44Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > IKEA is \*huge \*in Europe. You can order the stuff online, but people seem to prefer to trudge through the store and actually see first what they wanted to buy. It also helps that each store has a decent restaurant. At least in the USA, going to IKEA is an outing unto itself. You go there, eat some meatballs at the restaurant, walk around the showroom looking at the fake living room displays (my own living room never looks as stylish as those displays after I get home and assemble my IKEA furniture), then browse the housewares section, and finally find your furniture in the warehouse. Actually IKEA is a good example of what brick and mortar retail stores need to do to survive today. The fact that I need the thing they’re selling isn’t a good enough reason to get me to go to their store anymore when I can buy it online much easier. Stores need to offer some sort of experience that you can’t have online. _Marketplace_ had a good segment about this recently, about how Bath & Body Works is doing fairly well, and the reason for that is they let you sample the products in the store before you buy them, something you can’t do online. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/94 "2020-03-01T22:05:01Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > How much of that returned apparel goes straight to landfill? This is based on the companies I am familiar with, which are moderate to higher end products, not $8 t-shirts. Short answer: Very little Longer answer: The items go through a process of identifying status and re-working if needed: 1st quality: No stains, holes, marks of any kind, frequently still has hang tags, etc. If wrinkled then steamed These get re-tagged if needed, placed back in a polybag, then placed back into inventory 2nd quality: Any kind of blemish that makes it not saleable as a first quality item Mostly these get donated Vendor defect: If the issue is clearly a manufacturing issue then it goes a different route so broader issues can be identified early and also to communicate back to the factory (possibly with credit) ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/95 "2020-03-01T22:09:56Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Agreed. As much as people complain about the good ole days when you could walk into a hardware store and have a guy hand you everything you need for a home improvement job, the data doesn’t bear out that people really care so much as to spend significantly more at a shop that does provide the service. We have some local hardware stores that are small and with very knowledgeable people and of course higher prices. Most of my spending goes to HD or Lowes, but some of it under the right conditions will go to this store. So there is a niche, but it’s a small niche. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/96 "2020-03-01T23:06:58Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > You’re not wrong, pullin. I’m a straight, white chick who owns one (1) cordless drill. But it’s getting increasingly common for me to know more about tools, DIY repairs, and even fuckin’ lumber and metalware than the orange aprons at Home Depot. > > Used to be, you’d talk with an old, crusty fella at the hardware store who’d know exactly what you needed to do whatever projects you had in mind, and could offer advice or suggestions for the usual newbie mistakes. > > Now, it’s more efficient - and less prone to errors or bad information - to look up a YouTube tutorial and identify the supplies my damn self. > > Last time I was at Home Depot and needed steel wire, I tried 3 different employees. They all assumed I was hanging a picture, and when told I was not they … kinda fuzzed out mentally, like why would anyone need any kind of wire for anything else? None grasped that aluminum wire is a different thing, not interchangeable with steel … which didn’t matter since none could help me find the damn thing anyway. They only knew where the picture-hanging kits could be found. > > Went home before I strangled one of them in sheer frustration, and ordered the damn wire off Amazon. Of course, since I couldn’t see or touch it & the seller used a weird metric diameter measurement instead of standard gauge sizes, I got the wrong fucking wire. > > Eventually drove way the fuck outta my way to get to one of those small, independent hardware stores staffed by crusty old fellers. Bought 3 spools, because fuck if I’m going through that bullshit again. Ha! My local Ace Hardware has those crusty old guys, and they’re great. Not to mention, they’re five minutes from my door, and the nearest Home Dopey is 20-25 minutes away. Hell, even the non-crusty young folks of both genders who work there can listen to your vague description of what you need, and take you right to it, though if you’re doing anything complicated and want some guidance, you still want one of the crusty old guys. And they’re not going out of business anytime soon: their parking lot’s always packed on weekends. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/97 "2020-03-02T02:47:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ha! My local Ace Hardware has those crusty old guys, and they’re great. Not to mention, they’re five minutes from my door, and the nearest Home Dopey is 20-25 minutes away. > > Hell, even the non-crusty young folks of both genders who work there can listen to your vague description of what you need, and take you right to it, though if you’re doing anything complicated and want some guidance, you still want one of the crusty old guys. > > And they’re not going out of business anytime soon: their parking lot’s always packed on weekends. Same here (except that the Ace is a 2-minute drive, and the Home Depot is a 5-minute drive). The folks at my Ace are actually super-friendly, as well as knowledgeable; when they learned that I grew up in my dad’s hardware store (a True Value), they treated me like a long-lost cousin. 🙂 Even if the prices are a smidge higher at Ace, I value their knowledge and service, and I only go to HD for things that the Ace doesn’t carry. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/98 "2020-03-02T05:16:26Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > This process is already pretty typical of e-commerce for apparel and footwear. Typical return rate for e-commerce in general is around 20%, and for apparel it can be as high as 30%, mostly due to fit. Amazon now has a program called Prime wardrobe where you order up to 8 items and have 7 days to return them, after which you get charged for the ones you didn’t return. I expect quite a lot of users of this service will order the same item in different sizes and colors and only keep one or two, so their return rate will be very high. [https://www.amazon.com/learn-more-prime-wardrobe](https://www.amazon.com/learn-more-prime-wardrobe) ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/99 "2020-03-02T06:21:45Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > We have some local hardware stores that are small and with very knowledgeable people and of course higher prices. Most of my spending goes to HD or Lowes, but some of it under the right conditions will go to this store. > > So there is a niche, but it’s a small niche. We’re in a fairly remote mountain village. A little hardware store is 4 minutes away, or 2 if I don’t mind bouncing. A smaller, crustier store is 6 or 8 minutes away, next to the post office. A slightly larger and cleaner store is 15 minutes away in the next village downhill. Lowe’s and other hardware and building-supply stores down in the county seat are 30-35 minutes away. Small and specialized needs take us to local shops. Shopping at the big stores needs justification for the $6-$7 fuel cost. Are prices higher up-country? Usually not enough to justify burning gas. These little stores are clerked by their owners who know every item’s location and indications. Staff at Lowe’s and the supply shops aren’t bad; turnover is low and most everybody knows something. I guess it’s folks in the urbs and suburbs who suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580/100 "2020-03-02T11:55:50Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > It seems like some of the malls around here are trying to reinvent themselves as more entertainment destinations rather than just shopping destinations. More trendy resturants, escape rooms, that sort of thing, and fewer retail stores. Yeah, I think some here have equated “retail” and “mall”. Malls in my city have a large number of cafes and restaurants, and they’re doing just fine. Plus throw in the increase in leisure and even educational stuff (e.g. I’ve seen a couple malls with painting or photography classes going on) and there’s still plenty of reason IMO to go there. This is not a commercial 🙂 Retail meanwhile looks like an ever more fierce competition over a decreasing pie. In the UK though you have a few juggernauts like Primark, which are so good they can bring shoppers back to the high street. (FYI Primark doesn’t offer online shopping, which must be a deliberate strategy, because otherwise it’s really weird they haven’t thought to do that.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-funny-and-sad-to-see-retail-try-to-save-itself/848580.md?page=6)