# It IS hate, not heritage. symbology of the "confederate" flag, chapter whatever **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846 "2008-04-11T04:04:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/21 "2008-04-11T11:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=Darkhold] I come from Wyoming am I a Yankee? I’ve never really gotten that straight. Well I guess you’re right because I remember when my mother visited a few southern states with her husband she got screamed at by a ‘southern gentleman’ for being a stuck up Yankee bitch because she honestly didn’t realize the guy was talking to her while she read the menu. Her husband actually had to come out of the bathroom and talk this guy down and apologize for ‘her’ lack of manners. . [/QUOTE] What the hell are you talking about? Does this have any relevace to the topic at hand, or do you just look for any excuse to tell that story? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/22 "2008-04-11T12:04:03Z")
**It IS hate, not heritage. . . .** Well, it’s both. It’s a heritage of hate. It’s funny about symbols; the Confederate battle emblem (the one on the Dukes of Hazzard car) was never the flag of the Confederacy, but it’s the symbol everybody recognizes. Maybe if it weren’t for the KKK and other such worthless trash, it’d be a harmless symbol of rebellious spirit. (As I’m sure the Duke boys meant it; for God’s sake, they’re just good ol’ boys, never meaning’ no harm. True, they been in trouble with the law since the day they were born.) Here in Georgia, they went through several versions of the state flag in a few years, starting with a flag that incorporated the battle emblem, and ending up with a flag that’s actually a whole lot closer to the Confederate flag – but nobody seems to mind, since it doesn’t incorporate the battle emblem. My experience when it comes to arguing with Confederate apologists is that it’s like trying to talk somebody out of their religion; facts and logic are of no avail. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/23 "2008-04-11T12:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] I should say that, gen’rally, the General Lee is viewed in a different way than the CBF alone. [/QUOTE] This is correct. A red Dodge Charger with a Confederate battle flag painted on the roof is a symbol of a kitschy television show in which none of the good guys (who, incidentally, drove that Charger) were racist in any way. The General Lee (complete with flag on roof) is a symbol of The Dukes of Hazzard, and can’t be lumped in with the flying of a Confederate battle flag over a state capitol. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/24 "2008-04-11T12:14:39Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] What the hell are you talking about? Does this have any relevace to the topic at hand, or do you just look for any excuse to tell that story? [/QUOTE] Yes because I’ve told that story so many times…I was just pointing out that people from the south tend to call everyone else Yankees and seem to view the rest of the nation as somehow intruding on their lives. They see themselves as some separate nation and use the word Yankee like it’s some type of insult even if the person comes from the West. It doesn’t matter if I’m a Yankee when it comes to interpreting a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/25 "2008-04-11T12:16:17Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] What the hell are you talking about? Does this have any relevace to the topic at hand, or do you just look for any excuse to tell that story? [/QUOTE] No, it’s actually an attempt by **Liberal “Drama Queen” Tarian** to say, “Let’s talk about me!”. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/26 "2008-04-11T12:19:56Z")
[QUOTE=Darkhold] Yes because I’ve told that story so many times…I was just pointing out that people from the south tend to call everyone else Yankees and seem to view the rest of the nation as somehow intruding on their lives. They see themselves as some separate nation and use the word Yankee like it’s some type of insult even if the person comes from the West. It doesn’t matter if I’m a Yankee when it comes to interpreting a flag. [/QUOTE] Oh, I see. You don’t know shit about Southerners. Carry on. [QUOTE=Merijeek] No, it’s actually an attempt by **Liberal “Drama Queen” Tarian** to say, “Let’s talk about me!”. -Joe [/QUOTE] How was Darkhold’s story an attempt by Liberal to do anything? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/27 "2008-04-11T12:22:54Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] How was Darkhold’s story an attempt by Liberal to do anything? [/QUOTE] No, “prelude to a hissy fit” followed by a bunch of Springer-like “you don’t know me!” shit. Standard MO from him. As for knowing the South, I’ve been here for 9 years, and I don’t see anything inaccurate in what **Darkhold** said. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/28 "2008-04-11T12:24:54Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] No, “prelude to a hissy fit” followed by a bunch of Springer-like “you don’t know me!” shit. Standard MO from him. As for knowing the South, I’ve been here for 9 years, and I don’t see anything inaccurate in what **Darkhold** said. -Joe [/QUOTE] Right. All Southerners think that the rest of the world are a bunch of Yankees trying to intrude upon their lives. Genius. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/29 "2008-04-11T12:26:05Z")
nm. need to read rest of thread before responding. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/30 "2008-04-11T12:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] Oh, I see. You don’t know shit about Southerners. Carry on. How was Darkhold’s story an attempt by Liberal to do anything? [/QUOTE] I dunno I lived with a girl for four years that was a southerner (and occasional dealings with the rest of her family who still lived in the south) I have a stepfather that’s a southerner and I’ve had discussions with many proud southerners on message boards. I’ve been told all about the War of Northern Aggression about Southern Pride and about how nobody that hasn’t been born and raised in the south can say shit about anything to do with the south. I’m not buying it. > [@](#): > > Right. All Southerners think that the rest of the world are a bunch of Yankees trying to intrude upon their lives. Should I have added a disclaimer to my statements? Alright ATTENTION: I’M SURE THE MAJORITY OF SOUTHERNERS ARE LOVELY KIND WARM PEOPLE THAT SEE THEMSELVES AS BUT A PART OF THIS GREAT NATION. MY LIMITED EXPERIENCES WITH THE SOUTH AND THE PEOPLE OF THAT REGION IS ADMITTEDLY SMALL AND PROBABLY GIVES ME A SLIGHTLY INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THEIR WAY OF LIFE. But those of you that are caught up in this whole rebel pride thing and do use the term Yankee to separate yourself from the rest of America are suspect to me. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/31 "2008-04-11T13:06:30Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t fight the hypothetical] Wow. So a symbol of the navy represents ‘supporting slavery’ to you? Just wow. [/QUOTE] How can it not? > [@Wiki](#): > > Speaking specifically of [J.] Davis, Cooper wrote: > > For his entire life he believed in the superiority of the white race. He also owned slaves, defended slavery as moral and as a social good, and fought a great war to maintain it. After 1865 he opposed new rights for blacks. He rejoiced at the collapse of Reconstruction and the reassertion of white superiority with its accompanying black subordination. As someone said upthread, it is a heritage of hate. But apparently, in the South, pride cometh before and after the fall. And won’t ever fucking leave. It might have been rehabilitated a bit by the DoH, but that doesn’t change history. If we really do want to get past race in this country, perhaps the first few steps should be taken by those who made such a big deal about it in the past- ie, the South. Recognizing the true meaning of that flag would be a good start. My mother was born under Nazi rule in the Netherlands. If some Germans moved down the street, and put up a swastika, I’m sure she’d love to give them a history lesson (not that they’d need it, as it seems Germany has managed to actually learn someting from history). And if German soldiers in Afghanistan captured a Taliban stronghold, and raised a swastika in triumph (similar to what southern soldiers have [done](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#The_Confederate_Flag)), I’m sure she wouldn’t be the only one upset. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/32 "2008-04-11T13:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I went to a high school where black guys hung out with rebel-flag-wearing white guys in lifted trucks. Nobody ever gave much of a shit about it. [/QUOTE] So if I produce some black guys who do give a shit, will you abandon that as a valid argument? Or were you just MPSIMing around? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/33 "2008-04-11T13:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Yankees don’t get to decide what Southern things mean. [/QUOTE] You’re absolutely right. Southerners do a perfectly good job of that on their own. I hate to quote myself, but the article [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2772340&postcount=341) has been published and as such is no longer available. Glad I quoted it. You can find the abstract [here](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=988225). > [@](#): > > Drawing on a unique data set that matches legislative votes on the Confederate flag to electoral support for an anti-miscegenation law, I find evidence that legislators with “anti-miscegenation” constituents are the flag’s most likely supporters. To the extent that opposing the right to marry across races reveals a preference for discrimination, support for the flag appears to have lacked motivation from an unbiased Southern heritage. I wish the article were still available. Though I last read this article five years or so ago, the graph he draws is very revealing. On one axis is support for the flag, on the other is support for anti-miscegenation laws. Support for each follows y=mx almost perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/34 "2008-04-11T13:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] As for knowing the South, I’ve been here for 9 years, and I don’t see anything inaccurate in what **Darkhold** said. [/QUOTE] Whadda ya need, a bus ticket? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/35 "2008-04-11T13:37:13Z")
The time for the “Heritage, Not Hate” people to defend the flag has come and gone. When they sat on their hands and did nothing while it was appropriated by a bunch of hateful racists they lost the opportunity. When you allow the flag to be dragged through the sewer is when you give up the right to object when people complain about the stink it makes. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/36 "2008-04-11T13:38:17Z")
**Liberal** , you really are a douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/37 "2008-04-11T14:18:15Z")
Heritage and history are important to some people- I think its silly, but that’s just me. But I can see where a non racist Southerner would have a problem with not being allowed to display the signs of his history because other groups have apporpriated those symbols to further racist views. The history of the South to many is not all about hanging blacks from trees. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/38 "2008-04-11T14:22:40Z")
There is a symbol in my ethnic and cultural heritage that represents creation; it represents all that is good; and it is used to indicate a wish for the blessings of the divine power. It has been misused by some groups, more than 50 years ago, but its essential meaning must be recognized. Because of this, I intend to display [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Germany_1933.svg) flag in front of my house. Anyone who is offended is obviously an ignorant bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/39 "2008-04-11T14:36:44Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] There is a symbol in my ethnic and cultural heritage that represents creation; it represents all that is good; and it is used to indicate a wish for the blessings of the divine power. It has been misused by some groups, more than 50 years ago, but its essential meaning must be recognized. Because of this, I intend to display [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Germany_1933.svg) flag in front of my house. Anyone who is offended is obviously an ignorant bigot. [/QUOTE] You’re joking but you actually have a valid point- what if that flag was the national flag of Luxembourg or something- should they be denied pride in their heritage and culture because some asshole misapporpriated it? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846/40 "2008-04-11T14:36:48Z")
And yes, it’s _exactly_ the same thing. Any Proud-Southern-Heritage-nik who displays a “Southern Cross” flag does so with the knowledge that a very large number of people see it as a symbol (1) of an armed revolt against the nation in order to preserve slavery and (2) of an effort to preserve legal segregation. Those who cry “heritage! heritage!” are exactly like a Hindu or a Buddhist living in the West who displays a gigantic swastika and says “But, in my religion it is an auspicious sign.” Get a fucking clue. [QUOTE=Wee Bairn] You’re joking but you actually have a valid point- what if that flag was the national flag of Luxembourg or something- should they be denied pride in their heritage and culture because some asshole misapporpriated it? [/QUOTE] Your national/cultural pride is something that exists independently of any particular symbol. Once a symbol has become (even though through no fault of your own) something so offensive to such a large number of people, it’s time to pick another symbol. Someday, the swastika might lose its Nazi associations and be safe for Hindus and Buddhists to display openly. Not today, my friend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-hate-not-heritage-symbology-of-the-confederate-flag-chapter-whatever/444846.md?page=3)