# It is impossible to be a Christian that accepts the theory of evolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044 "2009-01-13T04:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/1 "2009-01-13T04:53:21Z")
Well, I’ve attempted to somewhat hijack a couple of threads with this topic, so I thought I would try to give it a full airing. Point the first: The theory of evolution does not have a goal or an endpoint. Rather, new species are created through descent with modification, and those that fit best in their environment live (until the environment changes). It is possible that dinosaurs could have been the dominant land animal for earth’s entire history (i.e., no humans ever) if the environment had always remained optimal for dinosaurs and had not changed so that the mammals took over. I think that to “accept the theory of evolution” means to believe all of the above is true. Point the second: A Christian must necessarily believe that God intended to create humans. A Christian need not necessarily believe in the literal truth of one of the creation stores in the Bible (or anything else really). Therefore, the defining characteristic of a Christian for this purpose is one who believes in a god that intended to create humans (I know this definition includes lots of other religions, but Christian evolutionists are the ones I run up against). So, it is impossible to be a Christian that accepts the theory of evolution because it is not possible to believe the points discussed in both paragraphs above. At best, Christians can believe in “evolution light” or something, which is a theory that one type of creature changed into another until humans popped out as the pre-planned endpoint of the process. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/2 "2009-01-13T05:04:41Z")
Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/3 "2009-01-13T05:12:09Z")
Well, I think the Pope is gonna be surprised to learn this! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/4 "2009-01-13T05:12:50Z")
There’s no objective definition of “Christian”; no Official Bureau of Standards for religion that defines it. You are a Christian if you say you are a Christian. You are also making the error of trying to apply logic to religion. Religion is about faith, not reason; you can’t disqualify someone’s beliefs as Christian just because their worldview is internally contradictory, no matter how incoherent their version of Christianity is. It’s religion; it’s not supposed to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/5 "2009-01-13T05:13:38Z")
There are many Christians who wholeheartedly accept evolution. Kenneth Miller and Francis Collins are a couple of famous examples. One quote I read (Polkinghorne?) said something about God creating a universe where creatures could evolve sho would come to know him. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/6 "2009-01-13T05:15:27Z")
It is impossibly, or , at least, remarkably, arrogant to assume that one knows anything of the mind, or will, of God. How dare you assume that Evolution was not God’s plan all along! Are you only going to believe in a God that does everything instantaneously; with a poof and flash and smoke? Let God’s Plan unfold as she wills it. She will amaze you with her perfection. ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/7 "2009-01-13T05:17:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > A Christian must necessarily believe that God intended to create humans. Talk about your nutshells! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/8 "2009-01-13T05:17:52Z")
I don’t understand why atheists try to push Christians into this false dilemma. I suspect a lot of the atheists don’t remember either. 😉 > [@](#): > > I think that to “accept the theory of evolution” means to believe all of the above is true. So a Christian could believe this was possible and absolutely could have happened, but that wasn’t what God had in mind. I don’t see a problem here. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/9 "2009-01-13T05:17:53Z")
Oh, by the way, God only deals at the wholesale level. If you were hoping for individual response, that may not be part of the Plan. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/10 "2009-01-13T05:20:49Z")
> [@chacoguy420](#): > > It is impossibly, or , at least, remarkably, arrogant to assume that one knows anything of the mind, or will, of God. > > How dare you assume that Evolution was not God’s plan all along! > > Are you only going to believe in a God that does everything instantaneously; with a poof and flash and smoke? She needed the \*poof \*for interior design. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/11 "2009-01-13T05:26:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So, it is impossible to be a Christian that accepts the theory of evolution because it is not possible to believe the points discussed in both paragraphs above. It’s possible for Christians to believe in both Jesus Christ and evolution. It’s the same reason it’s possible to reconcile the big bang theory. The unassailable reason will always be “God caused it.” Dinosaurs –\> apes –\> man. God caused the natural selection to happen. Big bang —\> solar system accretion –\> earth formation. God caused it. String theory proven –\> parallel universes –\> aliens. God caused it. [insert any future science knowledge]. God caused it. … which ultimately leads to the same question, “what caused God?” which then leads to the [Anselm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury) type answer of _“God is that for which no greater being is conceivable”_ or similar [Thomas Aquinas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Thomas_Aquinas) _“prime mover”_ definition. This is all metaphysics stuff which can’t be proven or argued for either side. **Rand Rover** , I think the religion vs science debate has been completely dissected into every possible angle to a total stalemate. With that said, I’m still on a personal mission to figure out _which_ religion is the correct one. I guess I’m a glutton for self-torture. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/12 "2009-01-13T05:26:48Z")
> [@chacoguy420](#): > > It is impossibly, or , at least, remarkably, arrogant to assume that one knows anything of the mind, or will, of God. > > How dare you assume that Evolution was not God’s plan all along! Believers claim to know all sorts of things about the mind and will of God all the time. For example : > [@chacoguy420](#): > > She will amaze you with her perfection. How do you know God is perfect if it’s as unknowable as you claim ? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/13 "2009-01-13T05:44:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So, it is impossible to be a Christian that accepts the theory of evolution because it is not possible to believe the points discussed in both paragraphs above. At best, Christians can believe in “evolution light” or something, which is a theory that one type of creature changed into another until humans popped out as the pre-planned endpoint of the process. I completely disagree. You can perfectly believe that god messed up with evolution in order to make sure that humans would appear. For instance threw a big meteor on earth so as to put an end to the reign of the dinosaurs and help the mammals (and doing this doesn’t even touch evolution directly). Or latter made sure that an ape with a bigger brain would be born, while letting the rest of the creation evolving on its merry way… (Oh! And having played “SimEarth” long ago : maybe he didn’t really care what kind of intelligent creature would evolve, providing he would win the game and would have been equally happy with bright octopuses 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/14 "2009-01-13T05:52:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Believers claim to know all sorts of things about the mind and will of God all the time. For example : > > How do you know God is perfect if it’s as unknowable as you claim ? My knowledge of perfection is flawed; still, she puts on a great show, occasionally. Well, more often than I would assume to be modest. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/15 "2009-01-13T06:07:10Z")
I think you’ve actually got a point that most people who believe in some sort of “guided evolution” don’t really understand evolution or its incredible explanatory power. That said, there’s nothing about evolution that depends upon a chaotic, non-mechanistic universe, so God could certainly have set the initial conditions in place such that the pure process of natural selection would inevitably result in humans. And if it is (as it appears to be) a chaotic, non-mechanistic universe, then it become extremely difficult to distinguish pure evolution from “evolution lite” anyway. (Which, of course, makes pure evolution the more parsimonious explanation and the likelier to be true.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/16 "2009-01-13T06:13:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s no objective definition of “Christian”; no Official Bureau of Standards for religion that defines it. You are a Christian if you say you are a Christian There is actually. There’s one thing that all Christians have in common, the take Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior. This is commonly accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/17 "2009-01-13T07:38:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There’s one thing that all Christians have in common, the take Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior. I understand what “lord and savior” mean, but I’ve never understood what “\*personal \*lord and savior” mean. What do people mean by this? What benefit in clarifying the concept do people get by adding “personal”? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/18 "2009-01-13T07:43:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are a Christian if you say you are a Christian. Bullshit. If someone believes in Zeus and Thor and believes that Jesus never existed and all that he was alleged to have taught was wrong, they can call themselves Christians till the cows come home, but they’re not Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/19 "2009-01-13T07:49:10Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > I understand what “lord and savior” mean, but I’ve never understood what “\*personal \*lord and savior” mean. What do people mean by this? What benefit in clarifying the concept do people get by adding “personal”? It’s always sounded vaguely to me like it’s a thumbing of the nose at papism, though I don’t have anything to support that. I.e., you have a _personal_ relationship with God, with none of the saints, ceremony and sacraments standing in the way. I always picture a southern Baptist saying, “Have yew accepted _Je_sus as yore _personal_ Lord and Savior?” ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044/20 "2009-01-13T07:50:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Point the first: The theory of evolution does not have a goal or an endpoint. Rather, new species are created through descent with modification, and those that fit best in their environment live (until the environment changes). It is possible that dinosaurs could have been the dominant land animal for earth’s entire history (i.e., no humans ever) if the environment had always remained optimal for dinosaurs and had not changed so that the mammals took over. I think that to “accept the theory of evolution” means to believe all of the above is true. > > Point the second: A Christian must necessarily believe that God intended to create humans. A Christian need not necessarily believe in the literal truth of one of the creation stores in the Bible (or anything else really). Therefore, the defining characteristic of a Christian for this purpose is one who believes in a god that intended to create humans (I know this definition includes lots of other religions, but Christian evolutionists are the ones I run up against). > > So, it is impossible to be a Christian that accepts the theory of evolution because it is not possible to believe the points discussed in both paragraphs above. At best, Christians can believe in “evolution light” or something, which is a theory that one type of creature changed into another until humans popped out as the pre-planned endpoint of the process. If you know the statistical properties of a system, you can design it so that you (eventually) get the result you want even if the system is random. A simple analogy (can’t think of something better right now) : you want to see the sequence HTH (Heads Tails Heads), so you start flipping a coin until you get it. When you get the sequence, it occurred randomly, even though getting that sequence was the whole purpose of your experiment. So, it’s possible that God set up the Universe with such a set of probabilistic laws and initial conditions that eventually a human would emerge somewhere in the Universe, even though it happened randomly. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-impossible-to-be-a-christian-that-accepts-the-theory-of-evolution/481044.md?page=2)