# It is not a choice (Homosexuality) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345 "2003-07-18T07:01:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/41 "2003-07-20T02:29:01Z")
**Dob** ’s analogy is fatally flawed, as I tried to illustrate in a post above that he completely missed the boat on, because he is assuming in his analogy that sexuality is manifested only in actions. It is not. It does not require active thought as, say, “Gosh I want a hot dog!” does. It is present whether or not we ask it to be, which is one of the main failings of conversion therapy; you can punish a thought, and you can make it undesirable, but you cannot eliminate it entirely without eliminating the source. Too, oit is possible to engage in sexual intercourse with a person one is not attracted to (prostitution pretty well shows this, though there are, of course, other fine examples as well). ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/42 "2003-07-20T02:41:07Z")
**Dob** > [@](#): > > Alcoholic’s will tell you they have no choice either, but they do. You can choose to drink or not to drink. I think this is a bad analogy and for the record, alcoholism is not a choice. It is an illness or condition. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/43 "2003-07-20T05:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*First of all, I apologize if this post has typos…I’ve sprained my wrists and they’re bandaged, making typing difficult. > > Now, in the words of the Sophist Protagorus, “I am a man, nothing human is alien to me.” If you post on a **public** message board, you run the risk of other people actually commenting on what you say. If you’d prefer a private conversation with someone, there’s always the wonder of e-mail or instant messaging, where you can carry on long conversations with someone undisturbed by other’s comments. > > And secondly, if you read my post, you’d see I did have a point. **Dob** was saying that a person has a choice as to his or her sexual activity. A person can choose to have sex with someone of a different gender, the same gender, or not to have sex. You were bringing up sexual orientation, asking if he could choose who he was attracted to. > > Of course, these are different issues. A person can have sex with someone he or she is not attracted to, and a person can be attracted to someone without having sex. \*\* Do you often talk just to hear yourself, or is this a new thing? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/44 "2003-07-20T05:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dob \* > \*\*Captain Amazing replied on this one and I agree. I wasnt passing judgement…you just think I am. > > Well I think thats a bit harsh! Simply because I belive something you dont hardly makes me, or my worldview, twisted!! Now alot of the other things I do, may make me twisted, but thats not the point. > > Im sorry to have upset some of you here…but my view has not changed. I dont believe in Fate, and I dont belive we have NO CHOICE in who or what we are. Life is choice. You can try and pretty it up all you want to but in the end it comes down to what someone consciously chosing. \*\* So, you do choose to be heterosexual and could choose to be gay. Regarding your comparison between homosexuality and alcoholism. That is a base comparison which denigrates both groups. From [http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/faq/q-a.htm#question4](http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/faq/q-a.htm#question4) > [@](#): > > Q #2: Is alcoholism a disease? > Yes, alcoholism is a disease. The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems. > > Like many other diseases, alcoholism is chronic, meaning that it lasts a person’s lifetime; it usually follows a predictable course; and it has symptoms. The risk for developing alcoholism is influenced both by a person’s genes and by his or her lifestyle. (See also “Publications,” Alcohol Alert No. 30: Diagnostic Criteria for Alcohol Abuse and Dependence.) Alcoholism is a disease, homosexuality is not. One doesn’t _choose_ to be an alcoholic. One also does not choose to be gay. > [@](#): > > Q #4: Can alcoholism be cured? > No, alcoholism cannot be cured at this time. Even if an alcoholic hasn’t been drinking for a long time, he or she can still suffer a relapse. To guard against a relapse, an alcoholic must continue to avoid all alcoholic beverages. (See also “Publications/Pamphlets and Brochures,” Alcoholism: Getting the Facts.) Your analogy demeans the seriousness of alcoholism and it demeans the very existence of gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/45 "2003-07-20T06:37:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\*The OP cares, for one. I’m interested in seeing others’ thoughts. And certainly as a member of the GLBT community I’m interested in that respect as well. Because the fact of the matter is that some people care to disturbing levels that someone is gay because of all the “bad” things it says/means/indicates about that person. \*\* I read the OP as more of a “Debate starter” (others - including apparently the mods, seeing he has been BANNED - might call it a “troll”), rather than as a real request for information. I think the OP was actually asking from the homopobic side of the arena, rather than from the homosexual side… If I was wrong, I appologize to the OP for mis-interpreting his question. And of course I never meant to hurt the feelings of other participants in this debate, straight or gay. For the record, yes, I realize LOTS of people “care” immensely (and normally not out of goodwill) about other people’s sexual orientation. I was trying to point out to the OP that it **shouldn’t** matter to anyone what someone else’s sexual orientation is (unless of course “anyone is” interested in “someone else” sexually…) ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/46 "2003-07-20T07:19:10Z")
Why would anyone “choose to be Gay”? Do you think it is the fun of being ridiculed by classmates and co-workers? Perhaps it is the joy of being beaten up by asshole homophobics. Or it is just knowing you are joining a group of people who have to fight for every legal right? Gay teen suicide levels are high - gee, there is more proof people choose to be Gay because it is fun. Dis-inherited and tossed out of the family home; yet another fun result of the choice. You no more “choose” to be Gay than you “choose” to be heterosexual. The difference is that heteros are in the majority, and therefore, anybody who isn’t heterosexual just isn’t a part of the team. And you know what happens when you aren’t a part of the team. I have found that truly heterosexual men could give a rat’s ass if I were Gay or not. It is that closeted fag who hates me the most…he is the one who is out to prove to his buddies that is is a manly man. He ain’t like me. No way. And he’ll beat the hell out of anybody who resembles what he is afraid of becoming. Choose to be Gay. Yeah, right. Now THAT is a really wise idea. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/47 "2003-07-20T07:28:47Z")
By the way, despite the somewhat cynical post from above, I have been with my lover for 22 years. Our family and friends are happy for us, we have developed thick skin to the occasional assholes we run into, and for the most part, there has been a general trend for tolerance from people you would least expect. I am quite happy with the way I am. And if there is such a thing as reincarnation, I truly hope to be reborn as a Gay man again. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/48 "2003-07-20T07:32:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMark \* > \*\* > I have found that truly heterosexual men could give a rat’s ass if I were Gay or not. > > It is that closeted fag who hates me the most…he is the one who is out to prove to his buddies that is is a manly man. He ain’t like me. No way. And he’ll beat the hell out of anybody who resembles what he is afraid of becoming. > \*\* I think you have captured what I have been trying to say far more concisely and eloquently than I could… _decent people don’t give a d\*\*n about the other’s orientation_ (or political bent, or private habits that don’t hurt anyone else…). It’s all the knee-jerk (whatever)-haters - sometimes unexposed and maybe unaware (whatevers) themselves - that are the problem, in all walks of life and on all points of difference between people. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/49 "2003-07-20T07:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMark \* > \*\*By the way, despite the somewhat cynical post from above, I have been with my lover for 22 years. > > Our family and friends are happy for us, we have developed thick skin to the occasional assholes we run into, and for the most part, there has been a general trend for tolerance from people you would least expect. > > I am quite happy with the way I am. And if there is such a thing as reincarnation, I truly hope to be reborn as a Gay man again. \*\* Yes. Brilliant. Bravo. Well put. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/50 "2003-07-20T14:57:12Z")
[hijack]Rage… Taking… Over… I see Mockingbird is at it again - deliberately (or maybe not even deliberately, that would be a real shocker) misunderstanding people and then asking “clever” questions about it. Man, man, man.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/51 "2003-07-20T15:32:40Z")
What happened to Major Kong? I guess would be banned if I quoted him. So much for the open minded left. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/52 "2003-07-20T16:18:36Z")
He wasn’t banned for this thread-he was banned for spamming the boards with threads that didn’t mean anything. (for example, to announce his latest bowel movements, or something like, “hey, I’m sitting down.”) ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/53 "2003-07-20T17:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > I read the OP as more of a “Debate starter” (others - including apparently the mods, seeing he has been BANNED - might call it a “troll”) If he was not interested in seeing opinions, he would not have started the thread. He would have kept it to himself. And while it is possible that he was a troll, that does not necessarily invalidate this thread. > [@](#): > > I think the OP was actually asking from the homopobic side of the arena, rather than from the homosexual side… And I returned with my understanding of the homophobic side. > [@](#): > > For the record, yes, I realize LOTS of people “care” immensely (and normally not out of goodwill) about other people’s sexual orientation. I was trying to point out to the OP that it **shouldn’t** matter to anyone what someone else’s sexual orientation is (unless of course “anyone is” interested in “someone else” sexually…) I think there needs to be a distinction made between “don’t care” as in you’re not going to go out of your way to hurt someone, and “don’t care” as in “who cares what homophobes have to say?” I care inasmuch as if I can have a good-enough understanding of their mental process (cue **Mockingbird** post here\*;)) I can see where their error(s) lie(s). \*As in, with something like “that would imply that they have brains”. If’n I knows him like I thinks I does, then I’ma thinkin’ he’ll post it. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/54 "2003-07-20T17:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > I read the OP as more of a “Debate starter” (others - including apparently the mods, seeing he has been BANNED - might call it a “troll”) If he was not interested in seeing opinions, he would not have started the thread. He would have kept it to himself. And while it is possible that he was a troll, that does not necessarily invalidate this thread. > [@](#): > > I think the OP was actually asking from the homopobic side of the arena, rather than from the homosexual side… And I returned with my understanding of the homophobic side. > [@](#): > > For the record, yes, I realize LOTS of people “care” immensely (and normally not out of goodwill) about other people’s sexual orientation. I was trying to point out to the OP that it **shouldn’t** matter to anyone what someone else’s sexual orientation is (unless of course “anyone is” interested in “someone else” sexually…) I think there needs to be a distinction made between “don’t care” as in you’re not going to go out of your way to hurt someone, and “don’t care” as in “who cares what homophobes have to say?” I care inasmuch as if I can have a good-enough understanding of their mental process (cue **Mockingbird** post here\*;)) I can see where their error(s) lie(s). \*As in, with something like “that would imply that they have brains”. If’n I knows him like I thinks I does, then I’ma thinkin’ he’ll post it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/55 "2003-07-20T18:17:19Z")
Can we lay off **Dob** here? I honestly don’t think he was deliberately insulting anyone. Aside from a poorly chosen analogy to alcoholism, everything else he said is true. I have no choice in my orientation. I’m attracted to men. Only men. That’s set and it would take quite the extraordinary woman to get through that wall. However, I don’t _have_ to act on that orientation. Not doing so would be difficult. It would be miserable. It would probably drive me to depression and loneliness and general emotional degradation, but I don’t _have_ to act on it. So acting on my orientation _is_ a choice. Simple fact. Now, what one makes of that simple fact determines whether one is a homophobe or supportive. Stating that it’s a fact does not. Stating that it’s a fact is not an insult. Stating that it’s a fact does not make **Dob** homophobic. Personally, I didn’t see anything insulting in **Dob’s** first post. But everyone jumped on him like he was Fred Phelps’s webmaster. And then people started jumping on people (like **Captain Amazing** ) who pointed this out (not naming any names, **Mockingbird** ). Can some of us please chill out just a little before they inadvertently follow **kirkland** ’s footsteps over the edge? Thank you… ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/56 "2003-07-20T18:24:03Z")
Right. I refreshed to see if the post had gone through. I saw it hadn’t so I posted. I have no idea NOW if it has gone through a third time. This is some really interesting computer karma. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/57 "2003-07-20T20:25:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*What happened to Major Kong? I guess would be banned if I quoted him. So much for the open minded left. \*\* Oh, how difficult it is to be you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/58 "2003-07-20T23:49:47Z")
**BeatenMan** , objective word of advice here … consider the possibility that there is a substantial disconnect between what you intend to say and how it comes out. You may want to work on this if you discover it is the case. GD, meanwhile, I humbly submit, is not the place to be if you are unable to convey yourself in a manner that at least mostly resembles your actual opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/59 "2003-07-21T01:15:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Your analogy demeans the seriousness of alcoholism and it demeans the very existence of gay people. I think maybe where im losing some people is that I like to break things down to their simplist component. Going that route while it may be near impossible for alcoholics to quit drinking…the actual physical act of buying and putting a drink to your mouth and drinking it down is by the conscious mind, and therfore is a choice. I also understand that knowing that doesnt make quitting drinking any easier, but you still have to acknowledge that drinking or not drinking is a choice. Anyway, this OP wasnt about that… I guess this whole debate comes down to considering if being gay means having sex with the same gender, or simply being attracted to them. Which brings up a WHOLE different debate! As it storming here and my PC just flickered…I will have to finish this later!! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345/60 "2003-07-21T02:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess this whole debate comes down to considering if being gay means having sex with the same gender, or simply being attracted to them. Which brings up a WHOLE different debate! As it storming here and my PC just flickered…I will have to finish this later!! **Dob** , for what it’s worth, I got what you meant. Basically, it’s like this: Say we have a guy, Jim, who is gay. But for certain reasons-Jim was brought up in a fundamentalist Christian family, and considers his feelings immoral-and so he decides to supress his natural desires to marry Becky. He and Becky live together, as man and wife, and have children, although Jim finds no joy in heterosexual sex. BUT, though Jim has never even given in to kissing another man, he’s still gay. Sarah, on the other hand, is straight-she’s always been attracted to guys, and is engaged to be married. But when Sarah was oh, say, 13? She and her friend Mara, were curious about what it felt like to be kissed, and so they once made out just out of curiosity. However, neither are attracted to other women, and despite their kissing, they are still straight. See, both parties made choices that were contrary to their own orientations at one time or another. So it WAS a choice to act on their desires. BUT, it was not a choice who they were attracted to. So yes, acting on being homosexual is, technically a “choice.” BUT, is it a BAD choice? I would say no, it’s not. You have to be who you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-not-a-choice-homosexuality/189345.md?page=4)