# It is now illegal to wear an anti-Bush shirt in west Virginia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103 "2004-07-14T17:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/21 "2004-07-14T18:11:52Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Whoever said this is becoming Nazi Germany is right on the money. Right–Nazi Germany, but without that whole “kill all Jews” thing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/22 "2004-07-14T18:16:25Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Right–Nazi Germany, but without that whole “kill all Jews” thing. :rolleyes: Well, not the Jews, but we’ve made great strides in enraging the homosexuals and getting them to become more visible–they’ll do just as well. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/23 "2004-07-14T18:17:32Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Right–Nazi Germany, but without that whole “kill all Jews” thing. :rolleyes: Actually, I was thinking more like _The Simpsons Treehouse of Horror V_: > [@](#): > > Ned: Oh! I see by the Big Board we got a Negative Nellie in Sector > Two. I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask the whole family to > kind of freeze and prepare for Re-Neducation. > Bart: Don’t you remember, Dad? Flanders is the unquestioned lord and > master of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/24 "2004-07-14T18:30:14Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Well, not the Jews, but we’ve made great strides in enraging the homosexuals and getting them to become more visible–they’ll do just as well. Let’s not forget the Muslims either. A group of people who are literally being rounded up and held indefinitely, without charges or trials and without access to family or attorney’s for an indefinite amount of time in a black hole of a prison camp where they are subjected to daily torture. I remember reading a few months ago that the Bushies wanted to install a ga chamber at Guantenemo, then commence with a serious of secret tribunals followed by assembly line executions. IOW, they wanted to turn Gitmo into a death camp. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/25 "2004-07-14T18:58:57Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Let’s not forget the Muslims either. Oy…where was my head? Well, he’ll get nowhere because Muslims & Ayrabs haven’t been demonized in Ameri…oh. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/26 "2004-07-14T19:00:03Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > I remember reading a few months ago that the Bushies wanted to install a ga chamber at Guantenemo, then commence with a serious of secret tribunals followed by assembly line executions. IOW, they wanted to turn Gitmo into a death camp. Holy Crap! :eek: Disclaimer: I am a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, with very strong libertarian tendencies. I hate the Administration with a fiery passion, and I still gotta call: Cite? If this ever turns out to be true I for one will start making preparations for the revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Bongmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Bongmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bongmaster)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/27 "2004-07-14T19:04:54Z")
The thing that actually worries me about this is that the next guy will probably be the same. When you only have two real (Republican or Democrat) choices come election time how much choice is there really? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/28 "2004-07-14T19:07:19Z")
> [@GWB](#): > > Free thought, free expression, that’s what we believe. I believe that’s a lapse into Newspeak. You know, it doesn’t mean “free” in the sense of “politically free” or “intellectually free,” just the approved sense of “this presidential event is free from criticism.” ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/29 "2004-07-14T19:15:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Note that protesters at the Republican convention in New York are being allowed to gather- in Queens. Frankly I’m surprised that they’re allowed to be that close. I figured they’d be allowed no closer than Philly. And I, too, must ask for a cite inre this: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I remember reading a few months ago that the Bushies wanted to install a ga chamber at Guantenemo, then commence with a serious of secret tribunals followed by assembly line executions. IOW, they wanted to turn Gitmo into a death camp. Not that I’d necessarily be surprised, but I’ve not heard anything of the sort: and damnit, I’ve paid my liberal dues, so fully expect to be kept in the loop. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/30 "2004-07-14T19:17:14Z")
Well, isn’t _this_ cute: The _Charleston Gazette_ posted this story, under the headline “‘We weren’t doing anything wrong.’” Google News has the link: [http://wvgazette.com/section/News/2004071346](http://wvgazette.com/section/News/2004071346) Some fuckwit has a refined sense of irony. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/31 "2004-07-14T19:17:43Z")
> [@picker](#): > > Holy Crap! :eek: > > Disclaimer: I am a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, with very strong libertarian tendencies. I hate the Administration with a fiery passion, and I still gotta call: > > Cite? > > If this ever turns out to be true I for one will start making preparations for the revolution. [Cite](http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_plans_for_executions_at_guantanamo.htm). I’m pretty sure we even had a thread about this awhile back but my search skills on this board are for shit. I don’t know the current status of this plan but I found the possibilities rather chilling. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/32 "2004-07-14T19:22:51Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Well, isn’t _this_ cute: > > The _Charleston Gazette_ posted this story, under the headline “‘We weren’t doing anything wrong.’” > > Google News has the link: > > [http://wvgazette.com/section/News/2004071346](http://wvgazette.com/section/News/2004071346) > > Some fuckwit has a refined sense of irony. Or not. **Larry** , why does clicking on that link take me to the Drudge Report? 😕 Alsi, i haven’t been able to access the _Charleston Gazette_’s webpage all day. I keep getting server timeouts. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/33 "2004-07-14T19:40:37Z")
**mhendo** – someone compromised the site’s security, and they felt that it would be better if people were sent to Drudge instead of reading that story. Nice, eh? I noticed that their search function isn’t working either, although I didn’t notice any time-outs when I was browsing via hard links. The malicious prat will no doubt cause plenty of headaches for their IT folks before they shut him out. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/34 "2004-07-14T19:44:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [Cite](http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_plans_for_executions_at_guantanamo.htm). > > I’m pretty sure we even had a thread about this awhile back but my search skills on this board are for shit. > > I don’t know the current status of this plan but I found the possibilities rather chilling. Oh dear og. \ ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/35 "2004-07-14T19:45:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t know the current status of this plan but I found the possibilities rather chilling. As do I, now. I gotta pay to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 several times now, because that truly pisses me off. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/36 "2004-07-14T19:59:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I remember reading a few months ago that the Bushies wanted to install a ga chamber at Guantenemo, then commence with a serious of secret tribunals followed by assembly line executions. IOW, they wanted to turn Gitmo into a death camp. I would point out that it’s been acknowledged on this board that you, yourself, **Diogenes** , had adopted a approach wherein he’d post exaggerations and even outright lies on this board, because it was more important to discredit Bush than to actually tell the truth. Of course, that acknowledgement appears on this board only in the paragraph above this one, as far as I know, and was made up by me. You wouldn’t by chance have a cite to make your claim above any stronger than mine, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/37 "2004-07-14T20:03:09Z")
That citation says nothing about a gas chamber, even if it were taken completely at face value. And considering that not a single quote is attributed to a single person with respect to the so-called plan, it’s relatively weak overall. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/38 "2004-07-14T20:04:18Z")
I posted a cite already, **Bricker**. Did you miss it? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/39 "2004-07-14T20:08:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*[Silencing Voices Of Dissent\*\*](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/04/eveningnews/main586959.shtml) > _COLUMBIA, S.C., Dec. 4, 2003_ > > …while demonstrating during a presidential visit to South Carolina last year, Bursey was arrested and could now be facing up to six months in prison. > > A U.S. Secret Service Agent told Bursey neither he nor his anti-war poster belonged on a **public corner**. > > He was told he couldn’t be anywhere but the free speech zone. > > But that so-called “free speech zone” wasn’t outside the hangar where the President Bush was speaking. It wasn’t across the street. Nor was it down the street. It was a half a mile away, where he couldn’t be seen by the president. > > Few would argue controlling protests is one way to control security. > > But an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit charges the president’s “free speech zones” are so far out of sight they don’t control protests. Instead, they make them disappear. > > When Mr. Bush’s motorcade came through Neville Island, Pa, last year, pro-Bush citizens could **line the curb** to wave and cheer. > > But anti-Bush protestors like retiree Bill Neel were ordered behind a fence, out of sight of the president and the press. > > _©MMIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved._ Some intsances of “free speech zones”: > [@](#): > > [http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=13694&c=86](http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=13694&c=86) > > Following is just a partial list of incidents from around the nation. > > **Phoenix, Arizona** > On September 27, 2002, President Bush came to the downtown Civic Center for a fund-raising dinner for two local candidates. A coalition of groups opposed to a variety of the President’s policies, consisting of approximately 1,500 people, **negotiated with the local police for a demonstration permit**. Phoenix police advised the protesters that the President had requested a federal protection zone. These protesters were required to stand across the street from the Civic Center. **People carrying signs supporting the President’s policies and spectators not visibly expressing any views were allowed to stand closer**. Eleanor Eisenberg, director of the local ACLU, was present as a legal observer. When mounted police in riot gear charged into the crowd without warning, Eisenberg, who was across the street taking photos, was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct. The charges were later dropped. > > **Stockton, California** > On August 23, 2002, at an appearance in a local park to support a Republican gubernatorial candidate, protesters were ordered behind a row of large, Greyhound-sized buses, **which placed them out of sight and earshot of their _intended audience_**. They were advised that if they went to the other side of the buses, a location visible to those attending the event, they would be arrested. **People who carried signs supporting the President’s policies and spectators not visibly expressing any views were allowed to gather in front of the buses, where event attendees could see them**. Local police told the protesters that the decision to force them behind the buses had been made by the Secret Service. > > **Evansville, Indiana** > On February 6, 2002, Vice President Cheney was scheduled to appear at the local Civic Center. John Blair, a local activist, walked back and forth on the sidewalk **across the street** from the Civic Center carrying a sign reading “Cheney - 19th C. Energy Man.” When Blair stopped walking, he was ordered to move to a “protest zone” more than a block away from the Civic Center. When he refused to do so, he was arrested. **Spectators or passers-by who did not express any views about the Vice President’s policies were allowed to walk on the sidewalk in front of the Civic Center**. Blair, represented by the ACLU, successfully challenged the arrest. But the lawsuit remains in force because the city has refused to acknowledge that it had no right to ignore Blair’s constitutional rights > > **Kalamazoo, Michigan** > At President Bush’s appearance at Western Michigan University on March 27, 2001, a protester was carrying a sign sarcastically commenting on the prior Presidential election (“Welcome Governor Bush”). A Western Michigan policeman ordered him to go to a “protest zone” behind an athletic building located 150-200 yards from the parade route. **After the protestor was ordered to move, several hundred people who were not carrying signs congregated in the area where the lone protester had stood and were allowed to remain there.** The protest zone was located so that people sent there **could not be seen by the President or his motorcade**. When the protester refused to enter the protest zone, but insisted on standing where other people had been allowed to gather, he was arrested. Local police testified at his trial that the decisions had been made by the Secret Service. > > **St. Louis, Missouri** > On November 4, 2002, one day before Election Day, the President came to the St. Charles Family Arena. Two protesters carrying signs critical of the President’s policy on Iraq were ordered into a “protest zone” **approximately one-quarter mile away, a location completely out of sight of the building**. When the protesters refused, they were arrested. Meanwhile, **protesters carrying signs supporting Republican candidates in the election were not ordered into the protest zone, were allowed closer to the President, and were not arrested**. > > On January 22, 2003, President Bush came to town to announce an economic plan. **Protesters carrying signs opposing the economic plan and criticizing the President’s foreign policy were sent to a “protest zone” located in a public park, _three blocks away and down an embankment_ from where the President was speaking.** \* Neither people attending the event nor people in the motorcade could see the protesters in the protest zone. One protester was arrested for refusing to enter the protest zone. **Standing near the location where the protester was arrested was a group of people who were not asked to move, including a woman who carried a sign reading, “We Love You President Bush.” She was neither ordered into the protest zone nor arrested.** Local police told the arrested protester that they were acting at the direction of the Secret Service. Info on free speech and what constitutes valid restrictions thereof: > [@](#): > > [http://www.journalism.indiana.edu/syllabi/alreynol/j300/notes6.html](http://www.journalism.indiana.edu/syllabi/alreynol/j300/notes6.html) > > **Time, Place & Manner Restrictions** > ~a form of prior censorship, **but not based on content** > ~the idea is that the government has a right to limit the time, place and manner of communication **that interferes with the basic functions of society.** > > The government can impose reasonable regulations about when, where and how individuals or groups can communicate with other people. > > The courts have developed a set of rules to help us determine when time, place & manner restrictions are OK. > > ~ **Is the restriction of expression truly content neutral?** > ~Are reasonable, alternative channels of communication still available? > ~ **Is the restriction justified by a substantial government interest?** > ~**Is the restriction no broader than necessary to serve the government’s purpose? (Is it narrowly tailored)** > > **Types of Forums** > > **Traditional public forum:** public places that have long been devoted to assembly and speeches, places like street corners and public parks. Highest level of protection. > > **Designated public forum:** Places created by government that are to be used for expressive activities, among other things. City-owned auditorium, state fairgrounds, community meeting halls and sometimes student newspapers, because they’re open to all students. Government has greater power to use TPM restrictions to regulate speech. > > **Public property that’s not a public forum:** Public places, but they’re generally off-limits for expressive conduct. Examples include prisons, military bases. > > **Private property:** No FA guarantees, private owners are generally free to regulate. Most common areas of contention are shopping malls and private residences. Segregated “free speech zones” appear to fail “substantial government interest” test and dramatically fail the “content neutral” test. More details on the different types of forums. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/tradforum.htm](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/tradforum.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103/40 "2004-07-14T20:11:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I posted a cite already, **Bricker**. Did you miss it? The story you posted slides right around the executions. It talks about building room for a tribuanl, and then a possible “death chamber” to prepare for executions. But when it quotes the unnamed spokesman, it’s unclear if his comment about “prudent planning” refers to the tribunal facilities or the execution facilities. I’m willing to bet that the reference, to the extent the unnamed spokesman even exists, was to the former. That entire article was was written in such a way as to deliver on impression while not explictly making any such claim. It’s Moore-ish. But - I acknowledge that there is a cite, of sorts, and my argument goes to the weight to be given to to the facts and inferences in the cite, not its existence. I apologize for my snipe about about making stuff up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-is-now-illegal-to-wear-an-anti-bush-shirt-in-west-virginia/255103.md?page=3)