It is unlawful to declare this law unconstitutional.

Most of the above posters would be helped by learning some true constitutional law and history before posting on a subject such as this. I am certain the original poster has no clue now exactly what would happen.

  1. “Judicial Review” existed prior to Marbury v. Madison

One of the common errors in this thread is the assertion that “judicial review” is a creation of Chief Justice Marshall in the case Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 37 (1803). This misconception supports the assertion that it can or should be done away with, because it is only a creation of the Supreme Court. However, the concept of “judicial review,” including the idea of “judicial supremacy” (not only can a court review for constitutionality, but the judicial system’s opinion prevails over either of the other branches), existed in American jurisprudence before Justice Marshall stated unambiguously that the federal judiciary had the power. English courts at times exercised “judicial review,” or at least asserted the right (see Dr. Bonham’s Case, 8 Coke Rep. 107 (C.P. 1610)). And the Privy Council reviewed and declared acts of colonial legislatures that were in conflict with English law void. Finally, there were not only many examples of state courts using the power to test state laws against state constitutions, but the Supreme Court itself had not only used the power without saying so in so many words (as for instance in Hylton v. United States, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 171 (1796), where the constitutionality of a federal law was argued and upheld on the merits, and *Ware v. Hylton[/i, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 199 (1797), wherein a state law was overturned which conflicted with a federal treaty). There are other examples. Indeed, the federal Judiciary Act of 1789 grants the power to the Supreme Court when it is reviewing the actions of state courts regarding issues of constitutionality of federal laws. The concept was not Marshall’s brain child.

It is not certain that the framers of the Constitution assumed “judicial review” would be exercised. While all comments at the Convention indicate an acceptance of the concept in some form, it isn’t clear that this was intended to include the concept of “judicial supremacy;” in the lact of reported statements we just don’t know. Predictably, there was argument during the ratification process between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists (see, for example, Federalist Nos. 78 and 81). However, it must be clearly stated that Justice Marshall was not articulating some new concept, nor was he abrogating to the Court a power that no one intended it to have. Indeed, given the swiftness with which the decision in Chisolm v. Georgia resulted in the Eleventh Amendment, it should be understood that the decision in Marbury must have been considered relatively unsurprising.

  1. Congress decides which federal court gets to decide an issue

Article III states unambiguously that the judicial power of the United States is vested in the Supreme Court, and such inferior courts as Congress shall establish. That power is defined in Section 2 of the Article. Section 2 also makes clear that the Supreme Court exercises original jurisdiction over only a few limited issues; the Court’s appellate jurisdiction extends to all other cases “with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.” This has been held to mean that Congress can withhold from the Supreme Court appellate jurisdiction over selected issues for which federal jurisdiction exists; in such cases, the judicial power may and or may not include the right of an appeal. For over 100 years, federal criminals did not have a right to appeal from decisions at the trial level, unless the court in which they were tried certified to the Supreme Court that it was divided on some question relating to their conviction.

In short, Congress can’t limit federal jurisdiction, but it can preclude an appeal from whatever trial decision is made in whatever inferior court is created to handle the issue (presumably subject to the provisions of the Fifth Amendment’s requirement of “due process”).

However, it isn’t clear what would happen if Congress attempted to regulate the inner workings of the Supreme Court in the way proposed by {b]Little Nemo**. Congress sets the number of Justices through legislation; it establishes the remuneration of the Justices and appropriates the budget of the Court. It has the power to “regulate” the way in which appeals are taken. But certain aspects of how the Court functions are “judicial power,” and, as such, cannot be regulated by Congress. As an example, the Court considers the power to admit attorneys or disbar attorneys to be a “judicial power” which Congress has limited ability to regulate (see Ex parte Garland, 71 U.S. (4 Wall.) 333 (1867)). It is a good guess that the Court would look with disfavor upon a proposal that attempted to establish the mechanics of how it issued decisions. It cannot be dismissed as something that the Constitution doesn’t give the power to Congress to do quite so out of hand as another poster has postulated.

  1. As to the OP, the proposed language is unconstitutional, whatever that means

We have examined the underpinnings of the concept of “judicial review.” To the extent that the proposed language in the OP attempts to avoid the exercise of such power, it is not constitutionally permissible. Remember, “judicial review” is based upon an implication that the Constitution is the highest law of the land, that laws passed in conflict with it are, thus, not valid, and that the federal courts, charged by the Constitution with the jurisdiction of all cases arising under the Constitution, are required to determine the question of whether any federal law is so in conflict. Thus, the attempt to criminalize what is a constitutionally vested power of the federal judiciary would be unconstitutional. Congress can’t take away what the Constitution provides.

However, Bricker put his finger on the potential fly in the ointment: that the people of the United States ignore the Supreme Court. Let us say, as an example, that the Supreme Court decides in the case of Mr. Padilla that the President doesn’t have the power constitutionally to hold American citizens as “enemy combattants” without access to judicial processes to which they would normally be entitled. The President, acting on the recommendation of his advisers, refuses to order Mr. Padilla be set free; instead, Mr. Padilla is transported off U.S. soil to an undisclosed location. In short, Mr. Bush steals a page from that very anti-Republican president Andrew Jackson and tells the Supreme Court to go sit on some sharp implement. What happens?

The Court has no mechanism for enforcing its decrees. Courts don’t have policemen; the administrative branch provides officers to the courts for their use, e.g. as bailiff. Courts themselves can’t sue people; they need the administrative branch to act on their behalf, such as when they need to collect a debt. Outside the walls of the courtroom, they only have such power as we, the people, through our elected and appointed representatives and officers, give them.

Fortunately, during our history, we as a nation have rarely ignored or frustrated the will of our judiciary by refusing to carry out their dictates. We understand the potential pitfalls should we begin to pick and choose when to accord the judiciary deference. And, in turn, usually the courts have been aware that too great a stretch, too out of sync an opinion will potentially result in irrelevancy for them. This can be highly frustrating at times to those whose rights get trampled because society isn’t quite ready to go where it might eventually find itself anyway. There was, for instance, absolutely no way that the Supreme Court in the 1870s could have ruled that laws banning polygamy were unconstitutional without creating a firestorm of criticism. Someday in the future, such a law might well be deemed an unconstitutional classification in violation of a fundamental right. Other, worse examples can be cited.

Indeed, if anyone wants to understand just how bad the situation can get, read about FDR’s famous attempt to “pack” the Supreme Court in 1937. At that time, the Court was consistently refusing to allow Congress and state legislatures to pass laws which addressed social conditions in the country, but which the Court felt improvidently interfered with the concept that the ability of business to work without legislative interference was a “liberty” upon which the whole country’s greatness had been based. As the Court grew increasingly out of step with the political will of the nation, battered as it was by the effects of laissez-faire economics, it almost ended up being manipulated in the most cynical fashion into becoming nothing more than a mouthpiece for the then current administration. Fortunately, not only did Congress ultimately decide that such a step would be more obnoxious than even the continued intransigence of the Court, at least one Justice came to the conclusion that continued refusal to accept the new concepts gaining acceptance with the people would result in the Court becoming a largely irrelevant institution. Disaster was only narrowly avoided; imagine if you will how the ability to address political disputes through cynical manipulation of Court membership would play out in today’s highly charged political atmosphere!

Even Mr. Nixon understood this. The Court decided, the tapes were provided, and the President resigned. Imagine if he had told Justice Burger to “come and get them, you fink!”

Interesting discussion, DSYE.

Did Congress every pass a law to prevent court-packing, or is it still possible?

As for judicial review, even if it existed before Marbury is doesn’t mean it was the law. Marbary stands for two propositions - 1. that the SCT decides which branch can review another branche’s actions, and, less importantly, 2. that the S.Ct can review legislation. You don’t get to 2 without 1. You are right that the SCT usurped this power since it was not express in the constitution. However, its not really a question of political will to challenge it, even though your analysis is correct, since most (e.g. Nixon) would have come to the conclusion that it makes most sense for the legislative branch to have this power. Technically, an executive could say the judiciary doesn’t have this power, but most would conclude that the judiciary should have this power, the executive realizes this, and therefore doesn’t exercise his political will to oppose the court to use your term.

LemonThrower, the Marshall court didn’t make up anything or usurp any power. The Constitution says that “the judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme court” and that “the judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution”. Marshall stated that judicial review was an aspect of the judicial power that was given to the Supreme Court by the Constitution.

The question doesn’t really make sense. FDR’s Court-packing plan would have required that Congress rewrite the law that specifies that the Court be nine members. Congress didn’t have to pass any law to make packing illegal – it just didn’t go through with the plan. Were Congress to decide at some point in the future to implement a similar plan it could certainly do so (assuming the president didn’t veto the bill). Indeed, even if Congress did write a law making packing illegal, it could just repeal that law.

As DSYoung notes, however, the Congress almost certainly wouldn’t have adopted FDR’s plan even ifthe Justices had remained intransigent.

–Cliffy

At the moment I am unable to post anything substantial and so am forced to break my reply up into paragraphs.

I wasn’t under the impresion that Marbury v Madison invented the notion of judicial review of federal laws. It didn’t. It did, however, claim that right for the Supreme Court. I am well aware of the precedents in the state courts. For those not familiar with these cases allow me to recomend Gordon Wood’s wonderful Creation of the American Republic which covers them and so much more. For those wondering why DSYoungEsq chose to ignore them in favor of cross-Atlantic precedents perhaps it has to do with the motive behind the development of judicial review.

From its inception judicial review was elitist. The idea was developed among elites as a way of overrulling uppity citizens who were demanding that their state governments actually legislate in the common interest and were electing new representatives when the old ones refused to do so. This “levelling” tendency was anathema to the upper classes who were unused to sharing power with their social inferiors and judicial review was one of many ways they came up with to combat it. Naturally the citizenry bristled at the notion that their wishes once passed into law could still be overturned by their servants: judges. Since removing political power from the hands of the citizenry was arguably the main goal in creating the Constitution it is no surprise that judicial review was generally accepted by the Framers and since it was bound to be so generally unpopular outside the State House it’s also no surprise that it didn’t make it into the final document. If it had the ratification of the Constitution would have been even more bumpy and perhaps would have failed.

So judicial review was not specifically laid out in the Constitution and thus, it wouldn’t be explicitly unconstitutional for the Congress to claim the right to determine for itself the constitutionality of its statutes. It certainly can be done away with though whether or not it should be is debatable and thus off limits here in GQ.

2sense, the entire government was created to be elitist. That’s the whole reason we have a representative government rather than an absolute democracy. That’s the reason Presidents are chosen by the Electoral College and Senators were appointed by state legislatures. It was all set up to make sure the “right element” ran the country. The writers of the Constitution didn’t create the Supreme Court as a last bastion of elitism; as far as they were concerned, the public masses were never going to control any branch of government.

The Supreme Court was created as part of a package to make the federal government as decentralized as possible. Checks and balances. The idea of judicial review is completely in line with that.

As far as the idea that Congress can take back the right of judicial review, it’s not going to happen. One of the main precepts of the American legal system is “precedent” - now that it’s been ruled that the Supreme Court has the power of judicial review, that power cannot be revoked except by a higher authority. And being as judicial review has been declared to be a power derived from the Constitution, the only higher authority that could revoke it is a Constitutional amendment.

Not actually Congress doesn’t even need to be consulted. There are two ways to amend the constitution

  1. Congress passes a proposed amendment and sends it to the states to be ratified.

  2. The legislatures of 2/3 of all the states call for a convention for proposing amendments.

The second method bypasses Congress all together.

When 3/4 of all the states ratified the proposed amendments it is part of the constitution

I believe the second method has never been used. Part of the reason is governmental scholors aren’t sure whether the convention would be limited to the amendment on hand or could propose more amendments or simply write a new constitution.

Remember the convention that wrote our constitution was originally called just to amend the “Articles of Confederation.” Which they did away with.

Here’s a nice summary of how the amendment process works.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/fiscal/BBAREPT.htm#federal

I believe that 29 states petitioned Congress for a Constitutional convention for the purpose of adding a balanced budget amendment. But that is still five short and I somehow doubt that anyone else will be chiming in on this issue.

Little Nemo,

We are getting off topic and if we were in GD I would take issue with the assertion that representative democracy is inherently elitist. But I agree that the government created 200 years ago was intended to be run by “the better sort” ( though the common man was to be represented in the House of Representatives ). It’s hard to see how it could have been otherwise. Even those elites like Franklin with a more positive view of humanity favored their own classes. They were men of their times, after all. ( See also my caution halfway down this thread against seeing an original intent behind the Electoral College. )

I do want to take issue with your claim that the Congress can’t overturn judicial review by statute because it doesn’t have a higher authority than the Constitution. What I am saying is that Congress and the Executive can reject the Court’s claim under the Constution because the Constitution doesn’t delegate the power of judicial review. Since it’s not in the Constitution in the first place there is no reason to change the Constitution to get rid of it. Nor does precedent have any extra constitutional standing as it also is unmentioned. If the Congress were to pass a law authorizing the Senate or the President to overturn Supreme Court precedents that wouldn’t be explicitly unconstitutional.

Missed this before. There are indeed 2 ways to propose an amendment “…which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress…”

So even if the amendment comes from a constitutional convention called by the states it still must be sent to Congress because they get to decide how it will be ratified: by conventions in the states or by the state legislatures themselves. The former method has only been used once: the 21st Amendment to repeal Prohibition.

I’ll admit it’s a bit esoteric, but it all follows from the Constitution’s declaration that the judicial power of the United States will be invested in the supreme court. The Supreme Court stated it had the authority to decide whether judicial review existed as an aspect of that judical power and it had the authority to decide where that power resided. Its answers essentially were “yes” and “with us”.

So if Congress or the President were to deny that the Supreme Court had the power of judicial review, it would also be denying the Supreme Court’s judicial power as a whole.

I agree that there are legal arguments to be made for giving the federal courts the power of judicial review of federal legislation. That’s why I clarified that the power was not explicitly given by the Constitution. Right now the other branches accept those legal arguments but if and when they stop those arguments are worthless. This is why I say that Derlith has asked a political question rather than a legal one.