# It killed him - but hey, it MAY have worked! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2001, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484 "2001-05-15T06:13:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JayAndrewAllen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@JayAndrewAllen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JayAndrewAllen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/1 "2001-05-15T06:13:15Z")
To the people defending magic(k): If you want to know why people here get so incensed about New Age religions and therapies, and take umbrage at your “all possible worlds” approach to epistemology, consider the following: [http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/22927\_cancer14.shtml](http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/22927_cancer14.shtml) Some snippets: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Edward Steward came a long way to find a cure. > > Cancer was eating away at Steward last summer when he arrived from New Orleans and made his way to an isolated country house above the Columbia River. He hoped to save his life with a “magic” concoction its promoters say was born of science and Native American legend. > > Instead, investigators say it killed him. > > First his kidneys, then his heart failed in the hours the mineral compound coursed through his veins. > > … > > Stephanie Steward [his wife] wouldn’t agree to an interview, worried about hurting the criminal case. But she did say that it was word of mouth that led her and her husband to Brown. > > That’s typical for alternative cancer therapy…Someone’s cousin has heard about an unusual cure at work. An old classmate says he has survived a brush with death thanks to a treatment your doctor doesn’t know about. > > \*\* No peer-reviewed scientific studies, no proven string of successes, no proper causal explanations. Just anecdotes and mumbo-jumbo. But hey, it MAY have worked. Shit - it MAY STILL work! Who are we to say otherwise? Perhaps Mr. Steward didn’t believe in it enough. These spiritual phenomenon are very sensitive to belief, you know. Hell, maybe there was a skeptic in the room when the treatment was administered - his or her “negative psi energy” alone would be enough to reverse the effects of this wonder medicine, and cause death instead of give life. Perhaps he took the treatment during the waning phases of the moon. Healings should _always_ be done during the waxing phase - every idiot knows that. Or perhaps he was simply “meant” to die. After all, we don’t know everything about the universe - who are we to question God[dess]'s ways and means? On the same note: a recent _People_ magazine article trumpeted that Suzanne Somers has sworn to use only “natural” therapies in her fight against cancer (breast, I believe?). May the Goddess save her poor, misguided soul - or, at least, whisk it speedily to the Summerland. -J- ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/2 "2001-05-15T06:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JayAndrewAllen \* > \*\* > > Perhaps Mr. Steward didn’t believe in it enough. These spiritual phenomenon are very sensitive to belief, you know. Hell, maybe there was a skeptic in the room when the treatment was administered - his or her “negative psi energy” alone would be enough to reverse the effects of this wonder medicine, and cause death instead of give life. > > Perhaps he took the treatment during the waning phases of the moon. Healings should _always_ be done during the waxing phase - every idiot knows that. > > Or perhaps he was simply “meant” to die. After all, we don’t know everything about the universe - who are we to question God[dess]'s ways and means? > > \*\* Or maybe this man was so far gone with cancer (he was dehydrated and bleeding from his gums and penis upon arrival!) he was willing to try anything. Obviously, he didn’t care whether the treatment was FDA approved or not. Maybe I missed the part of the story where the New Age wackos kidnapped this man from his home and dragged him kicking and screaming to a witch doctor who tied him up and forced him to partake of “Magickal” cures and treatments. Perhaps we should note that this man was a grown adult capable of making his own decisions, however stupid they may be. Belief in magick and New Age healing didn’t kill this man. A former nurse using an unlicensed product incorrectly killed this man. Now, you want to rant about unlicensed medical professionals obtaining and using (incorrectly) unregulated and unlicensed medical procedures and treatments, I’ll get behind you. However, you can fuck off with your “magick kills innocent people” bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/3 "2001-05-15T07:47:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe I missed the part of the story where the New Age wackos kidnapped this man from his home and dragged him kicking and screaming to a witch doctor who tied him up and forced him to partake of “Magickal” cures and treatments… (snip)… Belief in magick and New Age healing didn’t kill this man. It’s an example, Beth, of how the concept of “magic(k)” can be harmful when it’s touted as fact. This man believed that this “magical cure” would, in fact, cure him (even though he was, admittedly, on his last legs). Touting a scientifically/medically unsound procedure/medicine as genuine does more harm than a thousand guns. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/4 "2001-05-15T07:53:16Z")
Just because someone needs a cure doesn’t absolve them from checking out the source of that treatment. The dead guy is just as much to blame as the people who _incorrectly_ administered the treatment to him. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/5 "2001-05-15T07:59:35Z")
I entirely agree, Beth. Stupidity is no excuse for stupid behavior. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/6 "2001-05-15T08:58:52Z")
In the old days we had all kinds of patent medicines available that supposedly would cure various ailments but really didn’t. When people died because they trusted the people who sold them, was it the fault of their own stupidity? I think it’s fucked up that you can get around laws that were put into place to prevent this kind of quackery by distancing yourself from real medicine as far as possible. If some doctor sells a treatment that does no good and results in someone’s death, it’s malpractice. If some ‘shaman’ sells some mystical herbal treatment, it’s all OK. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/7 "2001-05-15T09:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > \*\*In the old days we had all kinds of patent medicines available that supposedly would cure various ailments but really didn’t. When people died because they trusted the people who sold them, was it the fault of their own stupidity? > > \*\* If they chose the patent medicines over treatments that had been tested and retested to be safe and effective, then yes. If they took the medicine because it was the only treatment available and there was no regulating committee to offer safe alternatives, then no. The man from the OP falls into the first category. I refuse to feel sorry for anyone who will have a substance intravenously placed in his body that he did not bother to check out fully and know the risks of. ---
**Author:** ![Amedeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Amedeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amedeus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/8 "2001-05-15T09:26:32Z")
Not all “natural remedies” claim to be magic(k). Some are herbal concoctions that are supposedly “ancient secrets” or some such. Just to clarify that not all “new age” things are magic(k). (May as well be though). ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/9 "2001-05-15T09:37:57Z")
FTR, I’m not defending the people who claim to be able to cure cancer with carrot juice and things like that. But we live in a capitalistic society–caveat emptor. An individual who willingly partakes of holistic/magickal/herbal treatments and “cures” without researching to find out if they are safe is just as much to blame if something goes wrong as the person administering said treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Amedeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Amedeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amedeus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/10 "2001-05-15T11:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilbeth \* > \*\*FTR, I’m not defending the people who claim to be able to cure cancer with carrot juice and things like that. > > But we live in a capitalistic society–caveat emptor. An individual who willingly partakes of holistic/magickal/herbal treatments and “cures” without researching to find out if they are safe is just as much to blame if something goes wrong as the person administering said treatment. \*\* And what happens when they try to research it, Come to a place like this (that fights **ignorance** ) to find out what the intelligent people think about it, and discover it is accepted. They seem to be prone to believe things on faith, why not believe that we are the pinnacle of right and wrong. I forget, in the world of the elitist snob, the ignorant need not be taught, they **deserve** to die because they were bamboozled by a bunch of greedy capitalists. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/11 "2001-05-15T14:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > is just as much to blame if something goes wrong as the person administering said treatment. One difference jumps out at me: one person is trying to save their life, and as such their judgement is bound to be compromised. The other person is, in many cases, looking to profit off of that desperation. Furthermore, I don’t see much differnece between preying on people who could be better educated if they put the effort into it and attacking people who could have been stronger and known how to defend themselves with only a little effort. Regarding Suzanne Somers: the annoying thing about that case is that she has already had surgery and radiation treatment–what she is opting out of is some chemo that many doctors don’t even recomend having in the first place. So modern science had a big big hand in saving her life, but alternitive medicene will get the credit. ---
**Author:** ![JayAndrewAllen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@JayAndrewAllen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JayAndrewAllen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/12 "2001-05-15T18:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilbeth \* > \*\* > > Maybe I missed the part of the story where the New Age wackos kidnapped this man from his home and dragged him kicking and screaming to a witch doctor who tied him up and forced him to partake of “Magickal” cures and treatments. > \*\* That’s so irrelevant and you know it. We’re talking about epistemology, and the harm that idiotic ideas can lead you to inflict on yourself. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Belief in magick and New Age healing didn’t kill this man. A former nurse using an unlicensed product incorrectly killed this man. Now, you want to rant about unlicensed medical professionals obtaining and using (incorrectly) unregulated and unlicensed medical procedures and treatments, I’ll get behind you. However, you can fuck off with your “magick kills innocent people” bullshit. > \*\* So you’re telling me that if the treatment had been “correctly” administered (and how do you “correctly” administer a treatment with zero scientific evidence to back it up??), his cancer would’ve been cured and he’d lived to a ripe old age? Sorry, don’t buy it. Look, I’m not unsympathetic. I know people on their last legs of cancer who are willing to try almost anything. And you can bet that if I had cancer and had been through years of chemo with little success, I’d be downing wheatgrass shots morning and night. But when you’re _so_ desparate that you _willingly_ submit yourself to the hands of an unlicensed practitioner using an unapproved product, when you fail to gather any independent objective scientific evidence for the product outside of the sales brochure and swallow the hype about the potion being “magic” - then yeah, you bear some brunt of the blame for your own demise. And so does your irrational belief in New Age healing and magick. FWIW, I’ve also heard of people who have used “alternative” therapies right from the get-go, forsaking chemo and other modern treatments. They’re quite dead now, thankyouverymuch. -J- ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/13 "2001-05-16T05:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilbeth \* > \*\*An individual who willingly partakes of holistic/magickal/herbal treatments and “cures” without researching to find out if they are safe is just as much to blame if something goes wrong as the person administering said treatment. \*\* The person who partakes of a treatment without researching it fully is guilty of carelessness and, in all probability, desperation. But the person who _administers_ a treatment without researching it fully is guilty of gross negligence (in an ethical, rather than legal, sense), and the person who administers a treatment knowing that it is untested, inefficient, and/or unsafe is criminal scum. The patient and the practitioner do NOT share the blame equally. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/14 "2001-05-16T05:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpoilerVirgin \* > \*\* > > The person who partakes of a treatment without researching it fully is guilty of carelessness and, in all probability, desperation. > > But the person who _administers_ a treatment without researching it fully is guilty of gross negligence (in an ethical, rather than legal, sense), and the person who administers a treatment knowing that it is untested, inefficient, and/or unsafe is criminal scum. > > The patient and the practitioner do NOT share the blame equally. \*\* Good points, Spoiler. I agree. Perhaps I was a bit heavy-handed in my initial assessment. The blame is not equal in cases such as these. However, I still maintain that the full weight of the blame does not rest solely upon the shoulders of individuals who sincerely believe in non-traditional healing. Much of the blame _can_ be attributed to capitalistic individuals who are not trying to aid people in their quest for health but rather, are trying to make a quick and easy buck. I think we would do well to remember that those are two separate groups–sometimes they overlap but they are two different schools of thought. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/15 "2001-05-16T15:15:58Z")
So, let’s get this right. Someone, somewhere is selling a bullshit cure. This particular one is : > [@](#): > > born of science and Native American legend. It killed someone. This is a tragedy. It is a cruel manipulation of a persons desperation. But it has nothing to do with a persons belief in magic. A quick search on the net also turned up cancer cures based on the healing powers of [God,](http://www.drday.com/) [Enzymes,](http://www.mother.com/~wesurviv/enzymes.htm) [Biotechnology](http://www.e-bestsolutions.com/disclaimer/), hell - [here’s a whole list of them](http://www.quackwatch.com/00AboutQuackwatch/altseek.html). What this proves is two things:[list=1] [li] Some people are in a situation so desperate they will try anything[/li][li] Some fuckers are sick enough to take advantage of that[/li][/list=1] And I’m not sure what that has to do with epistemology. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/16 "2001-05-16T15:25:26Z")
OK, I have a question. A friend of mine is going for “magnetic therapy” for shoulder pain. Studies show that the only way magnetic therapy helps is through a placebo effect . . . So if I warn my friend that it’s medically useless, I may be killing the only good effect it MAY be having . . . On the other hand, she may be shelling out hundreds of bucks for fraudulent magnetic “braces” and appliances. Do I tip her off (send her a printout from Quackwatch, for instance?) or do I keep mny counsel? ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/17 "2001-05-16T17:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*OK, I have a question. A friend of mine is going for “magnetic therapy” for shoulder pain. Studies show that the only way magnetic therapy helps is through a placebo effect . . . So if I warn my friend that it’s medically useless, I may be killing the only good effect it MAY be having . . . On the other hand, she may be shelling out hundreds of bucks for fraudulent magnetic “braces” and appliances. > > Do I tip her off (send her a printout from Quackwatch, for instance?) or do I keep mny counsel? \*\* Would **you** want to shell out hundreds of bucks for fraudulent magnetic “braces” and appliances? Tell her that through dilligent research on the SDMB you have discovered the secret to the magnetic cure: it works, but all it takes is some simple fridge magnets. Then she’ll get the placebo effect without getting fleeced. If that doesn’t work, then hit her with the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/18 "2001-05-16T17:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kamandi \* > \*\*…Then she’ll get the placebo effect without getting fleeced. If that doesn’t work, then hit her with the truth. \*\* Silly **Kamandi** , placebo only works if you pay money… ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2001, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/19 "2001-05-18T04:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpoilerVirgin \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by evilbeth \* > > \*\*An individual who willingly partakes of holistic/magickal/herbal treatments and “cures” without researching to find out if they are safe is just as much to blame if something goes wrong as the person administering said treatment. \*\* > > The person who partakes of a treatment without researching it fully is guilty of carelessness and, in all probability, desperation. > > But the person who _administers_ a treatment without researching it fully is guilty of gross negligence (in an ethical, rather than legal, sense), and the person who administers a treatment knowing that it is untested, inefficient, and/or unsafe is criminal scum. > > The patient and the practitioner do NOT share the blame equally. \*\* From **Modern Magick** , by Donald Michael Kraig: “Always work in cooperation with M.D.s. _Under no circumstances should you ever advise a person to not follow a doctor’s advice or not seek the aid of professional therapist!_” And further on, “This [healing] ceremony will _not_ replace the treatment of a regular physician.” The italics are the author’s. ---
**Author:** ![JayAndrewAllen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@JayAndrewAllen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JayAndrewAllen)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484/20 "2001-05-18T23:26:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* > > From **Modern Magick** , by Donald Michael Kraig: > > “Always work in cooperation with M.D.s. _Under no circumstances should you ever advise a person to not follow a doctor’s advice or not seek the aid of professional therapist!_” > > And further on, “This [healing] ceremony will _not_ replace the treatment of a regular physician.” > > The italics are the author’s. > > \*\* Yes, I’ve read that, and seen it in similar magickal tomes. So then…why use magick at all? -J- [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-killed-him-but-hey-it-may-have-worked/65484.md?page=2)