# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/181 "2009-07-22T18:17:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’m sorry but that seems too much like some canned generic answer you give to someone that asks a question you don’t have the answer to. If man can do it, why can’t god? Unless he’s not omnipotent or benevolent > > All information that god could have created us with at birth. > > Can you truly say that your interpretation is not flawed? That is the message I seem to be getting from you, that only you, and people who believe the same as you, have “true” knowledge that isn’t flawed. That is a weighty burden to assume, and without any proof of that either. What’s to say my understanding of god isn’t correct? Obviously, he’s supposed to be benevolent and omnipotent, yet you and many others seems to want to attribute weaknesses in his power to justify the existence of suffering. I can tell you this is what I experienced during my near death experience. It is difficult to explain what I experienced in the ambivalent words of the English language. I am not alone in my observations, most experiencers explain what they saw as I do, use different words, but arrive at the same observations. God is not male nor female, in spirit form neither are we. God is a concept, a goal, nothing like you have learned from the religious teachings. I will provide another link that may explain it better if you can lay aside your preconceived ideas about what God is or should be. There are no religions in the spirit world. > **[Creation - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](https://aleroy.com/blog/archives/1073/creation)** > > Everything is energy, E=mc2. All energy is sentient, conscious. All consciousness is sentient energy. All configurations of consciousness are held together by an attractive force called Love. The sum total of everything, is the Creator, sometimes... ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/182 "2009-07-22T18:28:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I can tell you this is what I experienced during my near death experience. It is difficult to explain what I experienced in the ambivalent words of the English language. I am not alone in my observations, most experiencers explain what they saw as I do, use different words, but arrive at the same observations. > > God is not male nor female, in spirit form neither are we. God is a concept, a goal, nothing like you have learned from the religious teachings. I will provide another link that may explain it better if you can lay aside your preconceived ideas about what God is or should be. There are no religions in the spirit world. > > [Creation - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=1073) Putting aside everything else, you should not use the term “God” to describe something that is “a concept, a goal, nothing like you have learned from the religious teachings”. Doing so adds nothing to understanding, nothing to truth, and nothing to people’s experiences. If you avoided this sort of confusing word-overloading you might find that the words of the English language are not so ambivalent after all. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/183 "2009-07-22T18:38:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Putting aside everything else, you should not use the term “God” to describe something that is “a concept, a goal, nothing like you have learned from the religious teachings”. Doing so adds nothing to understanding, nothing to truth, and nothing to people’s experiences. > > If you avoided this sort of confusing word-overloading you might find that the words of the English language are not so ambivalent after all. Has not God always been a concept, explained in multiple ways by multiple religions? Has not God always been something to attain? etc. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/184 "2009-07-22T18:45:41Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Has not God always been a concept, explained in multiple ways by multiple religions? Has not God always been something to attain? etc. Frankly, no. God and gods have always been _sentient entities_ with distinct existence and identity exhibiting sentience, personality, and the ability and tendency to converse with individuals in real-time and effect the events occurring in reality. When you start calling it a “goal” and/or using the term “God is love” as anything other than metaphor, you are no longer using the word the same as everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/185 "2009-07-22T19:46:26Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > You are talking about temporary, transitive forms of suffering. Everybody who has gone through those forms of suffering either will, or has, seen a permanent end to it. Anybody would choose this over an eternal torment. _ **Anybody** _. :rolleyes: A meaningless posit, **since there is no eternal torment to choose against.** It was invented… when the Jewish leaders and scribes were angry enough. Straggler, please show me your much-cherished eternal torment in Genesis. Or Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy. _ **Well?** _ Meanwhile, I’ll be here humming the “Jeopardy” tune… for no partticular length of time. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/186 "2009-07-22T20:00:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Frankly, no. God and gods have always been _sentient entities_ with distinct existence and identity exhibiting sentience, personality, and the ability and tendency to converse with individuals in real-time and effect the events occurring in reality. When you start calling it a “goal” and/or using the term “God is love” as anything other than metaphor, you are no longer using the word the same as everyone else. So you believe this God actually existed? That He actually talked and walked among men. To be like God was always a goal as long as I can remember. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/187 "2009-07-22T20:20:17Z")
After posting in this thread a few times, I feel compelled for some reason to actually answer the post of the OP. Anybody who protests that the badness of worldly suffering isn’t the baddest possible badness ever is missing two critical things - the first being the point of mentioning suffering in the first place, and secondly, the fact that you cannot rely upon your assumptions about your opponent’s assumptions about suffering and Hell. The first point has been covered adequetely: the fact that people get _colds_ is more than sufficient to completely and utterly debunk the Omnimax god. That’s all it takes! Any unnecessary suffering at _all_ does it. If the person admits that unnecessary suffering of any kind exists in the real world, then the discussion is over and all that remains is to sort out which attributes the beleiver is willing to strip from their god to make it consistent with a universe in which unnecessary suffering occurs. (In my observation it’s usually omnipotence.) The second point is relevent because, aside from failing to comprehend the full implications of omnipotence, the best ways to argue against the POE are to either blow off the suffering, to to blame it on free will. Colds might be addressed with the former tactic - a person might claim that they’re not a big enough problem to merit “fixing”. This is why a person might try to choose the most horrific examples of suffering possible as their examples of suffering\*. Hell, on the other hand, is very tricky as an example of _anything_. Some people argue that Hell is something that you deliberately choose yourself - that it’s basically self-inflicted, and thus it doesn’t qualify. Other people argue - I’m not kidding here - argue that it’s actually not all that _bad_. (See the mormon beliefs about the afterlife.) And of course there’s also that set of theists who don’t believe in it at _all_ (possibly due to it being _obviously_ incompatible with a just or benevolent God). To the person making the POE argument, you can never tell what sort of theist you’re talking to, making arguing from Hell problematic at best - if you _do_ argue from Hell you restrict the set of people to whom your argument will seem significant. Horrific suffering against innocents on earth, on the other hand, is not a matter of belief. Most of the potential dodges from the POE fail when faced with them, much more than when you try to flash the believer-specific hell card. This is a simple explanation for why earthy suffering is often focused on rather than possibly-imagined and not-universally-accepted afterlife suffering when making POE arguments. - An interesting variant dodge of the “that’s not _real_ suffering” type are the ones where it’s asserted that _all_ earthy suffering is ephemeral and insignificant, as in _completely_ insignificant, because we’re really all just immortal spirits who will shrug off the experiences of life good or bad anyway. This is interesting because if you think about it, it’s actually an argument against omnibenevolence. In this, God doesn’t actually love _us_ - he may love the spirits that animate us, but since they don’t share our experiences or cares, they’re not the same people as we are. And thus it’s actually a concession of the POE, not a victory over it, because it “wins” by conceding the omnimax factor. (And of course by also justifying every possibly form of heinous brutality man can commit.) God in this scenario sees us as ants, or perhaps more accurately, video game characters. Something to be crushed and killed willy-nilly with not a fleeting care for its welfare, and even perhaps for the sheer amusement of it. One supposes that in its own context this God-ting might not consider itself evil, but in _our_ context, of course, it’s a horrific monster to be feared and loathed without end. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/188 "2009-07-22T20:32:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So you believe this God actually existed? That He actually talked and walked among men. To be like God was always a goal as long as I can remember. No, \*I \*believe that God never existed, and that it is just an idea developed as a result of men wishing to find order and hope and safety where there was none, that has subsequently been warped beyond recognition by politics and human use of it as a tool to control. But what I believe about that dark fantasy is of little relevence to the word’s _meaning_. In english, the word formed of the letters g-o-d in sequence _consistently_ refers to an entity with discrete existence, sentience, personality, some nifty powers, and the ability to interact with the material world and its inhabitants. The _specific_ god referred to when people capitalize it, the Christian god “God”, is no different in that respect. And either way, the term certainly does not refer to an abstract concept. And when you change from “God is […] a goal” to “To be \*\*\*like \*\*\*God was always a goal” (emphasis mine), well now, that’s rather a large goalpost shift, isn’t it? In the latter, God is an entity, a person. In the former, it’s not. If you’re bothered by ambiguity in the english language, it would behoove you not to mix your phrasing up like this, wouldn’t it? (And I recall that there are lots of conceptions of God, not to mention of gods, where being like it is not a goal in the slightest. Putting aside teh greek gods of a moment, many people don’t aspire to be the judgemental King of heaven, after all - they just want its _approval_. Or at least, to avoid its punishment.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/189 "2009-07-22T21:59:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So you believe this God actually existed? That He actually talked and walked among men. The Christians sure seem to think so, even ~2000 years later. Anyway, they’re absolutely free to do so - I just wish some of them weren’t using their beliefs to justify active interference in worldly things that have a good track record at relieving suffering. Whether or not Hell is real is and waiting for some of us, I figure stem-cell research, like medecine generally, could do a lot of good if artificial limits weren’t imposed on it. Related, I object to stifle children’s early interest in science by replacing a significant chunk of it with the Book of Genesis. They can yak about the next life all they want - just please don’t screw up this one for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/190 "2009-07-22T22:04:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > God in this scenario sees us as ants, or perhaps more accurately, video game characters. Something to be crushed and killed willy-nilly with not a fleeting care for its welfare, and even perhaps for the sheer amusement of it. One supposes that in its own context this God-ting might not consider itself evil, but in _our_ context, of course, it’s a horrific monster to be feared and loathed without end. And I’ve heard the “we are just like video game characters to him” analogy brought up in this forum - as a _ **defense** _ of God. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/191 "2009-07-22T22:12:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I’ve heard the “we are just like video game characters to him” analogy brought up in this forum - as a _ **defense** _ of God. Well, in defense of that defense, the God in that scenario at least has the property of _not being a horrific asshole_. He’s just a pleasant fellow who likes to invite his buddies over to play a multi-millenia-long game of D&D now and then - and you can be sure they all groan loudly in quite pleasant amused sympathy when Benny rolls snake-eyes on the ‘resist muscular distrophy’ stat again. Now, obviously this setup is not exactly ideal for the rust monsters and iranian citizen player avatars and NPCs who suffer horribly and die gruesomely over the course of the friendly gameplay, but as they’re not really real who cares about them anyway? (As a related side-note, I have thought that most characters in books and movies would have good justification to bitterly hate their authors, for putting them through trials for no better reason than the amusement of others.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/192 "2009-07-22T22:30:54Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > (As a related side-note, I have thought that most characters in books and movies would have good justification to bitterly hate their authors, for putting them through trials for no better reason than the amusement of others.) True. And while in the occasional story where people can enter fictional worlds it’s often portrayed as really cool, in reality it would be really depressing. It would mean that we could never read (much less write ) a really interesting story ever again without feeling guilty. Or at least I couldn’t. Or depressed; which one would depend if the author is creating those fictional worlds ( guilty ) or somehow sensing preexisting worlds ( depressed ). Consider all the dystopias, the tragedies, the wars in fiction and think about them all being real. What kind of legacy would it be for Orwell if it turned out that by writing _1984_, he had actually created a real Oceania with real people really suffering ? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/193 "2009-07-22T22:42:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > True. And while in the occasional story where people can enter fictional worlds it’s often portrayed as really cool, in reality it would be really depressing. It would mean that we could never read (much less write ) a really interesting story ever again without feeling guilty. Or at least I couldn’t. Or depressed; which one would depend if the author is creating those fictional worlds ( guilty ) or somehow sensing preexisting worlds ( depressed ). Consider all the dystopias, the tragedies, the wars in fiction and think about them all being real. What kind of legacy would it be for Orwell if it turned out that by writing _1984_, he had actually created a real Oceania with real people really suffering ? Depends on whether you thought the stories were real once whatever magic was used to send the person into them ended - it could quite easily be the case that the textual world does not really exist when its visitor isn’t there. It just crossed my mind that a non-omniscient God might be unaware that his creations were alive in a real sense, and instead actually believe they were as mindless as those demons I blow away when playing Doom. (Uh, those demons _are_ mindless, aren’t they?) Such a God might be technically omnibenevolent, as he stalked the earth raining death and destruction around him, happily crushing the skills of infants beneath his boots as the masses ran in screaming terror! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/194 "2009-07-22T23:51:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No, \*I \*believe that God never existed, and that it is just an idea developed as a result of men wishing to find order and hope and safety where there was none, that has subsequently been warped beyond recognition by politics and human use of it as a tool to control. > > But what I believe about that dark fantasy is of little relevence to the word’s _meaning_. In english, the word formed of the letters g-o-d in sequence _consistently_ refers to an entity with discrete existence, sentience, personality, some nifty powers, and the ability to interact with the material world and its inhabitants. The _specific_ god referred to when people capitalize it, the Christian god “God”, is no different in that respect. And either way, the term certainly does not refer to an abstract concept. > > And when you change from “God is […] a goal” to “To be \*\*\*like \*\*\*God was always a goal” (emphasis mine), well now, that’s rather a large goalpost shift, isn’t it? In the latter, God is an entity, a person. In the former, it’s not. If you’re bothered by ambiguity in the english language, it would behoove you not to mix your phrasing up like this, wouldn’t it? > > (And I recall that there are lots of conceptions of God, not to mention of gods, where being like it is not a goal in the slightest. Putting aside teh greek gods of a moment, many people don’t aspire to be the judgemental King of heaven, after all - they just want its _approval_. Or at least, to avoid its punishment.) You are just defending something you don’t believe in, I wonder why? I told you at the beginning in order to understand it would be necessary to forget the older teachings of what God is supposed to be. I see no reason for your arguments. What is shown in the near death experience does not follow religion or science. It is totally different, requiring a new approach to life. That is why experiencers struggle with integrating back into the physical. It took me a little over three years to do it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/195 "2009-07-23T00:18:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You are just defending something you don’t believe in, I wonder why? I told you at the beginning in order to understand it would be necessary to forget the older teachings of what God is supposed to be. I see no reason for your arguments. What is shown in the near death experience does not follow religion or science. It is totally different, requiring a new approach to life. That is why experiencers struggle with integrating back into the physical. It took me a little over three years to do it. I’m defending the use of a word - fighting misuse of a word. And I believe that words should be used properly. It’s nothing personal - I’m annoyed by any gross appropriation and redefinition of a word for deceptive or propaganda purposes. (“Patriot Act”, my ass!!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/196 "2009-07-23T03:24:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I can tell you this is what I experienced during my near death experience. You didn’t have an NDE-you had a bad dream. > [@lekatt](#): > > It is difficult to explain what I experienced in the ambivalent words of the English language. Let me give it a try: _Bad Dream_. Nope, not difficult at all. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/197 "2009-07-23T14:48:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m defending the use of a word - fighting misuse of a word. And I believe that words should be used properly. It’s nothing personal - I’m annoyed by any gross appropriation and redefinition of a word for deceptive or propaganda purposes. (“Patriot Act”, my ass!!) A word is a symbol, nothing more. It can stand for anything or everything. I have better things to do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/198 "2009-07-23T16:36:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > A word is a symbol, nothing more. It can stand for anything or everything. But for communication to occur, there needs to be a consensus among the participants about what a word stands for. If you define God as “the goal of achieving universal love” and everyone else defines God as “a powerful being who created and sustains the universe” then meaningful conversation is impossible. You might as well be typing in Greek. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/199 "2009-07-23T16:53:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Depends on whether you thought the stories were real once whatever magic was used to send the person into them ended - it could quite easily be the case that the textual world does not really exist when its visitor isn’t there. Which leads me to recommend the Thursday Next series by Jasper Fforde, starting with **The Eyre Affair** , set on a parallel earth and in the Book World. L. Ron Hubbard had a great story (pre-Dianetics) called [_Typewriter in the Sky_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typewriter_in_the_Sky) set in an author’s plot. It ends with the vision of God in a dirty bathrobe. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/200 "2009-07-23T17:33:52Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > But for communication to occur, there needs to be a consensus among the participants about what a word stands for. > > If you define God as “the goal of achieving universal love” and everyone else defines God as “a powerful being who created and sustains the universe” then meaningful conversation is impossible. You might as well be typing in Greek. Greek would be better - then we’d know we didn’t know what he’s talking about. Recycling words just sows confusion. (Because it is impossible not to notice this fact, I always assume confusing and misleading is the deliberate goal when I see this done.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=11)