# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/241 "2009-07-26T14:40:16Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Is an army drill instructor who forces his brigade to live in the woods for 7 days on meager rations and little sleep, carry heavy packs for 14 hours a day (when they aren’t crawling through mud), also not benevolent in your eyes? > > Or does benevolence have nothing to do with it - the drill instructor is simply trying to determine who is good enough? Does the drill instructor have the capability to train his troops and assess their skills without doing all that stuff? If he does, then he’s not benevolent. If he doesn’t, then he’s not omnipotent. An omnipotent god should never have to resort to a “lesser of two evils” decision. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/242 "2009-07-26T15:22:42Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Does the drill instructor have the capability to train his troops and assess their skills without doing all that stuff? If he does, then he’s not benevolent. If he doesn’t, then he’s not omnipotent. Unless the troops regard passing as (at least partially) a _reward_ for their efforts. Rewards have to be earned. The hard way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/243 "2009-07-26T15:32:04Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Rewards have to be earned. The hard way. Not if the drill instructor is omnipotent. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/244 "2009-07-26T15:42:47Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Unless the troops regard passing as (at least partially) a _reward_ for their efforts. Rewards have to be earned. The hard way. It rather depends on if they had any choice in the matter. Let’s say I brutally assualt someone, then offer to buy them a car. Even if the victim considers that I’ve made amends, they would still consider my earlier action to be evil. I can’t _justify_ it by giving a reward. If we _choose_ suffering then the work-reward analogy might work. But alas, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/245 "2009-07-26T15:49:51Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not if the drill instructor is omnipotent. Nope, regardless if the drill instructor is omnipotent. If it’s not _earned_, it’s not a _reward_. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/246 "2009-07-26T15:55:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It rather depends on if they had any choice in the matter. > > Let’s say I brutally assualt someone, then offer to buy them a car. Even if the victim considers that I’ve made amends, they would still consider my earlier action to be evil. I can’t _justify_ it by giving a reward. > > If we _choose_ suffering then the work-reward analogy might work. But alas, it doesn’t. We _did_ choose this life, at least according to Muslims\* (not sure about the other religions). What’s your Islamic-based defence? - [cite](http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zMuipwd5MTEC&lpg=PA43&ots=MVr2j2LR85&pg=PA43) (3rd and 4th paragraphs). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/247 "2009-07-26T16:16:28Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > We _did_ choose this life, at least according to Muslims\* (not sure about the other religions). What’s your Islamic-based defence? Can you quote the exact lines, because I don’t see it. The paragraphs you’ve referenced seem to just assert we’re all aware of god, and acknowledged his god-ness before we were born. It doesn’t seem to assert that we chose this life, or the suffering therein. In any case, I think I conceded too much ground in implying that an omnimax benevolent god would give humans a choice of suffering for a reward. Why would he give us options that have drawbacks? Why would he be a slave to rules like “Rewards must be earned”? He makes the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/248 "2009-07-26T16:23:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I can tell you this is what I experienced during my near death experience. It is difficult to explain what I experienced in the ambivalent words of the English language. I am not alone in my observations, most experiencers explain what they saw as I do, use different words, but arrive at the same observations. > > God is not male nor female, in spirit form neither are we. God is a concept, a goal, nothing like you have learned from the religious teachings. I will provide another link that may explain it better if you can lay aside your preconceived ideas about what God is or should be. There are no religions in the spirit world. > > [Creation - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=1073) So are you trying to say that god is like Brahman or the Pleroma? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/249 "2009-07-26T16:32:45Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Can you quote the exact lines, because I don’t see it. The paragraphs you’ve referenced seem to just assert we’re all aware of god, and acknowledged his god-ness before we were born. > It doesn’t seem to assert that we chose this life, or the suffering therein. [Here’s a cite](http://www.missionislam.com/discover/believeitornot.htm) that states: > [@](#): > > Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He was their Creator and the only true God worthy of worship. He said: That was in case you (mankind) should say on the Day of Resurrection, “Surely we were unaware of all this. We had no idea that You were our God.” [Silsilah al ahadeeth as Saheehah, Narrated by ibn Abbaas, collected by Imaam Ahmad] According to the Islamic narration, _everyone_ (even you) said that Allah was worthy of worship. You can’t worship him if you’re not in existence. > [@](#): > > In any case, I think I conceded too much ground in implying that an omnimax benevolent god would give humans a choice of suffering for a reward. > Why would he give us options that have drawbacks? Rewards have to be earned. God only does good. Giving “rewards” that haven’t been earned isn’t _good_, as in, the **righteous** thing to do, is it? > [@](#): > > Why would he be a slave to rules like “Rewards must be earned”? He makes the rules. False premise. The correct question is: Why does God want us to _ **earn** _ our rewards? Which is, of course, much more easily answered. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/250 "2009-07-26T16:59:18Z")
[QUOTE=straggler;11378774 According to the Islamic narration, _everyone_ (even you) said that Allah was worthy of worship. You can’t worship him if you’re not in existence. [/quote] Why not? You’re saying, that in this existence-before-existence, we can make choices, so I’d expect we’d be able to worship too. Indeed, _the very sections of the Qor’an that you’ve linked_ do very clearly say that we worshipped god prior to our earthly existence. So, no, I still don’t see how this implies we chose a life including suffering. > [@](#): > > Giving “rewards” that haven’t been earned isn’t _good_, as in, the **righteous** thing to do, is it? Well, have I _earned_ everything good that ever happened to me? Clearly not everything good needs suffering first. So why does _anything_ good require suffering? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/251 "2009-07-26T17:10:27Z")
When I give my Beloved a present, I don’t make her walk on broken glass first. Am I doing this wrong? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/252 "2009-07-26T17:10:42Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not trying to dodge the argument. I’m dodging a particular poster and his style because I’m not interesting in sorting the valid argument from the nonsense in an endless and pointless cycle I’ve experienced before. You may if you like. If you’re trying to dodge him, then responding to all of his posts is probably not the best tactic. > [@](#): > > My point is perspective. It’s illogical to try and argue what makes senses about God from a human perspective. We can say it doesn’t make sense from our perspective but just as we can’t say with certainty “God doesn’t exist” , since we can’t possibly see the purpose of creation from God’s perspective we can’t adequately address the question. It’s the mixing of the two perspectives in this specific argument that I find illogical. Sigh. It’s been said dozens of times in this thread. This argument does not disprove ‘god’, but only one particular definition of god. The existence of the kind of suffering we see in the world logically disallows a god that is defined as omnipotent, omniscient, _and_ omnibenevolent. It’s says nothing about a god defined by only two of those traits, just all three. > [@](#): > > if someone wanted to play some simulation game where they got to simulate all the possible good and bad of a world of duality, and Dad said, “Go ahead and play, you might learn something and you can’t really be hurt” would Dad be benevolent by allowing the experience or would he not? > > iow, if the perceived experience itself of duality and choice is the point then in what way is it not benevolent? How is a simulation in which you can’t really be hurt relevant? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/253 "2009-07-26T17:12:11Z")
> [@Aelita\_Daystar](#): > > So are you trying to say that god is like Brahman or the Pleroma? No. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/254 "2009-07-26T17:15:16Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Why not? You’re saying, that in this existence-before-existence, we can make choices, so I’d expect we’d be able to worship too. > Indeed, _the very sections of the Qor’an that you’ve linked_ do very clearly say that we worshipped god prior to our earthly existence. > > So, no, I still don’t see how this implies we chose a life including suffering. Because we all admitted (personally) that God is worthy of worship. We can’t worship him unless we are in existence. Admitting God is worthy of your worship is admitting you want to exist. > [@](#): > > Well, have I _earned_ everything good that ever happened to me? > > Clearly not everything good needs suffering first. Strawman. I didn’t say every good thing “needs” suffering first. I said if it isn’t earned, it isn’t a reward. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/255 "2009-07-26T17:19:34Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Strawman. I didn’t say every good thing “needs” suffering first. I said if it isn’t earned, it isn’t a reward. Why not set up a system where you get a reward for doing good, instead of getting an reward for suffering? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/256 "2009-07-26T17:22:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I give my Beloved a present, I don’t make her walk on broken glass first. Tell you what, I’ll let you answer your own question. Why do you give your beloved presents? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/257 "2009-07-26T17:23:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why not set up a system where you get a reward for doing good, instead of getting an reward for suffering? According to the Abrahamic traditions, you get rewards for doing good as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/258 "2009-07-26T17:24:46Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Tell you what, I’ll let you answer your own question. > > Why do you give your beloved presents? I give her presents without making her suffer or work for them because love her unconditionally. What is God’s excuse? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/259 "2009-07-26T17:27:49Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Because we all admitted (personally) that God is worthy of worship. We can’t worship him unless we are in existence. Admitting God is worthy of your worship is admitting you want to exist. No, according to your own link, we did worship god prior to this life of suffering. So I ask again, how did we choose a life of suffering? > [@The concept of monotheism in Islam and Christianity](#): > > …since God addressed Himself directly to all human souls, before men came to this world, and they gave witness that He is their Lord. > > “Am I not your Lord? They answered: Yea, we do bear witness”. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/260 "2009-07-26T17:28:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I give her presents without making her suffer or work for them because love her unconditionally. > > What is God’s excuse? You give her presents as a kind of reward for the pleasant way she treats you, I presume? What’s God’s excuse? Tell me what the drill instructor’s excuse is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=14)