# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/261 "2009-07-26T17:30:16Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No, according to your own link, we did worship god prior to this life of suffering. So I ask again, how did we choose a life of suffering? Your question makes as much sense as saying you believe the earth exists, but not the universe. If you choose to worship God, you’re choosing to exist. I can’t put it any more clearly than that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/262 "2009-07-26T17:30:53Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > According to the Abrahamic traditions, you get rewards for doing good as well. “As well” just doesn’t cut it with me. If someone hits my car through negligence, then pays for it through her/his insurance, I’m not receiving a reward. If God allows an innocent to come to harm through negligence, then gives that person a Heavenly Scooby-Snack sometime in the future, that also is not a reward-it’s a payoff. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/263 "2009-07-26T17:33:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “As well” just doesn’t cut it with me. If someone hits my car through negligence, then pays for it through her/his insurance, I’m not receiving a reward. What’s that got to do with it? This life is a test. Sometimes this life will reward you, sometimes it won’t. You don’t face the ultimate judgment until you’ve gone through the ultimate trial. > [@](#): > > If God allows an innocent to come to harm through negligence Whose negligence? God isn’t negligent. Humanly negligence? Then that person is being tested. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/264 "2009-07-26T17:36:38Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > You give her presents as a kind of reward for the pleasant way she treats you, I presume? > > What’s God’s excuse? Tell me what the drill instructor’s excuse is. If this “God” exists, he doesn’t _have_ an excuse, given that the no-hand information we have on this being is anywhere near correct. Why don’t you tell me the name and phone number of this particular drill instructor is, so I can interview him and find out what motivates him, because right now I’ve got _no_ real information to go on. Come to think of it, I’ve got just as much information to go on when it comes to this “God”-none. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/265 "2009-07-26T17:40:23Z")
\*\*Czarcasm: \*\*I give her presents without making her suffer or work for them because I love her unconditionally. \*\*straggler: \*\*You give her presents as a kind of reward for the pleasant way she treats you, I presume? * * * \*\*Mijin: \*\*how did we choose a life of suffering? \*\*straggler: \*\*Your question makes as much sense as saying you believe the earth exists, but not the universe. If you choose to worship God, you’re choosing to exist. I can’t put it any more clearly than that. * * * This thread is getting more entertaining by the minute 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/266 "2009-07-26T17:41:10Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > What’s that got to do with it? This life is a test. Sometimes this life will reward you, sometimes it won’t. You don’t face the ultimate judgment until you’ve gone through the ultimate trial. > Whose negligence? God isn’t negligent. > > Humanly negligence? Then that person is being tested. When my good friend, Steven, got hit by lightning while working on the wing of a B52-D in the summer of 1978, what test did he fail? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/267 "2009-07-26T17:45:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this “God” exists, he doesn’t _have_ an excuse, given that the no-hand information we have on this being is anywhere near correct. Rewards have to be earned, do you agree? It isn’t a reward if you didn’t earn it, do you agree? Eternal paradise is a reward, do you agree? See if you can figure out what the next question is. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you tell me the name and phone number of this particular drill instructor is, so I can interview him and find out what motivates him, because right now I’ve got _no_ real information to go on. But the only information you have on the God I am positing is that he allows suffering. To you, this is enough to take a cane to him. So, please take a cane to the drill instructor. All you need to know is, the drill instructor **allows suffering**. What’s that? You _won’t_ take a cane to the drill instructor? Oh dear - your argument has become hopelessly inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/268 "2009-07-26T17:52:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When my good friend, Steven, got hit by lightning while working on the wing of a B52-D in the summer of 1978, what test did he fail? Assuming your friend was killed: 1. I’m sorry to hear that 2. If the worst someone ever has to suffer is they get hit by lightning, even if it kills them, they’ll be cool with it when they find out how they’re going to be spending the next phase of their existence, which will last an eternity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/269 "2009-07-26T17:58:04Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Rewards have to be earned, do you agree? > It isn’t a reward if you didn’t earn it, do you agree? > Eternal paradise is a reward, do you agree? > See if you can figure out what the next question is. > But the only information you have on the God I am positing is that he allows suffering. To you, this is enough to take a cane to him. So, please take a cane to the drill instructor. All you need to know is, the drill instructor **allows suffering**. > > What’s that? You _won’t_ take a cane to the drill instructor? Oh dear - your argument has become hopelessly inconsistent. The information I(and others) have on the 'god" you posit is that he is _omni-benevolent_ and allows suffering, an obvious self-contradiction. Since we cannot know the mind of this “god” we cannot know what motivates him. Since _you_ cannot know the mind of this 'god", you _also_ cannot know what motivates him, but this doesn’t seem to bother you for some reason. And again, causing harm through negligence then giving a pay-off to ease the pain is **not** a reward. As far as the drill instructor is concerned, since the same claim of omni-benevolence is not being made, it has no bearing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/270 "2009-07-26T18:01:11Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Assuming your friend was killed: > > 1. I’m sorry to hear that > 2. If the worst someone ever has to suffer is they get hit by lightning, even if it kills them, they’ll be cool with it when they find out how they’re going to be spending the next phase of their existence, which will last an eternity. Would you mind if I stole your hose and cleaned out your bank account, if I promise that you will never die? All you have to do is believe me, and you will be happy with the deal for the rest of your life, guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/271 "2009-07-26T18:02:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The information I(and others) have on the 'god" you posit is that he is _omni-benevolent_ and allows suffering, an obvious self-contradiction. Since we cannot know the mind of this “god” we cannot know what motivates him. Since _you_ cannot know the mind of this 'god", you _also_ cannot know what motivates him, but this doesn’t seem to bother you for some reason. And again, causing harm through negligence then giving a pay-off to ease the pain is **not** a reward. > > As far as the drill instructor is concerned, since the same claim of omni-benevolence is not being made, it has no bearing. Oh brother :rolleyes: _Hey Czarcasm. I propose there exists a drill instructor that is omni-benevolent, but you should see what he puts his troops-in-training through!_ _What do you reckon? Is he still omni-benevolent?_ There you go, the claim is now being made. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/272 "2009-07-26T18:05:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you mind if I stole your hose and cleaned out your bank account, if I promise that you will never die? All you have to do is believe me, and you will be happy with the deal for the rest of your life, guaranteed. Hmm.. up the deal so that I don’t suffer in any way ever again, and that no one else in my sphere of existence is likewise suffering in any way ever again, and you betcha. It’s yours. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/273 "2009-07-26T18:19:28Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Oh brother :rolleyes: > > _Hey Czarcasm. I propose there exists a drill instructor that is omni-benevolent, but you should see what he puts his troops-in-training through!_ _What do you reckon? Is he still omni-benevolent?_ > > There you go, the claim is now being made. Why don’t you throw in Green Lantern’s ring and Santa’s sleigh while you’re at it? :rolleyes: If you want to believe in in omni-benevolent being that doesn’t behave in an omni-benevolent manner, go right ahead. You can’t use logic to argue someone out of a position that they didn’t use logic to reach in the first place, so I’m not going to try. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/274 "2009-07-26T18:22:58Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Hmm.. up the deal so that I don’t suffer in any way ever again, and that no one else in my sphere of existence is likewise suffering in any way ever again, and you betcha. It’s yours. Sure thing, but it’s going to happen sometime in the future, and if you quit believing in me the deal is off. Still don’t mind if I take away all your earthly possessions and kick you in the crotch once a week, considering the great “reward” I’m offering you? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/275 "2009-07-26T18:35:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why don’t you throw in Green Lantern’s ring and Santa’s sleigh while you’re at it? :rolleyes: > If you want to believe in in omni-benevolent being that doesn’t behave in an omni-benevolent manner, go right ahead. You can’t use logic to argue someone out of a position that they didn’t use logic to reach in the first place, so I’m not going to try. Oh, goodie. That answer is about as useless as me, at this point, stating that you already believe in God, and it’s your arrogance that won’t allow you to admit it. Unlike you, I won’t revert to such a thing, but instead try and figure out where the breakdown in communication is occurring. Here is my take on it: _You are claiming that we can know that a theoretical God is not omni-benevolent, based simply off the fact that he is, quite seemingly, allowing suffering_. You challenged me to explain how God could still be considered omni-benevolent under this scenario. _Confused at why you think the allowing of suffering disqualifies you from being omni-benevolent_, I ask if you could say the same thing about a drill instructor, if all you know about him is he is allowing his troops-in-training to likewise suffer. You respond by saying that no one is positing an omni-benevolent drill instrcutor, so I fix this problem for you by positing it. You respond with a useless platitude about reasoning with unreasonable people. So, where’s the breakdown? As far as I see it, you need to demonstrate that the allowing of suffering disqualifies you from being omni-benevolent under any and all conditions. If that’s what you are positing, then start with the drill instructor example, please. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/276 "2009-07-26T18:36:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sure thing, but it’s going to happen sometime in the future, and if you quit believing in me the deal is off. > Still don’t mind if I take away all your earthly possessions and kick you in the crotch once a week, considering the great “reward” I’m offering you? Kick me in the crotch once a week? I don’t get this eternal reward unconditionally? Sorry.. I’ll stick with the promises made in the Abrahamic texts. Your best examples of paradise are about as far off the mark as your best examples of suffering! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/277 "2009-07-26T18:47:36Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > You respond by saying that no one is positing an omni-benevolent drill instrcutor, so I fix this problem for you by positing it. You respond with a useless platitude about reasoning with unreasonable people. > > So, where’s the breakdown? > > As far as I see it, you need to demonstrate that the allowing of suffering disqualifies you from being omni-benevolent under any and all conditions. If that’s what you are positing, then start with the drill instructor example, please. A drill instructor that was omnipotent _and_ omni-benevolent might just save time, effort and pain by instantly making his troops ready for battle. Then again, you’ve got that little contradiction of an omni-benevolent drill instructor creating warriors. Why don’t you give me just _one_ example of why an omni-benevolent and omnipotent being would need and/or want a lesser being to suffer when there is obviously a better, faster and less painful way to teach a lesson? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/278 "2009-07-26T18:55:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A drill instructor that was omnipotent _and_ omni-benevolent might just save time, effort and pain by instantly making his troops ready for battle. > Then again, you’ve got that little contradiction of an omni-benevolent drill instructor creating warriors. > Why don’t you give me just _one_ example of why an omni-benevolent and omnipotent being would need and/or want a lesser being to suffer when there is obviously a better, faster and less painful way to teach a lesson? What is that, exactly? Remembering that rewards **have to be earned**. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/279 "2009-07-26T19:15:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I realize that. I’m saying that IMO from a strictly logical perspective the argument doesn’t really follow. The argument as I see is is saying from a human mortal perspective God can’t be benevolent because suffering exists. The flaw in the argument is the mixing of two perspectives. It’s illogical to claim _God_ can’t be benevolent because of the _human_ perspective on suffering. Benevolent is a _human_ word. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > and false ones don’t? Com’on. > > I’ve learned it isn’t time well spent to argue with fundies from either side. > > this > > sort of nonsense from you shows you qualify quite nicely. And **cosmosdan** continues to dodge ! > [@straggler](#): > > Is an army drill instructor who forces his brigade to live in the woods for 7 days on meager rations and little sleep, carry heavy packs for 14 hours a day (when they aren’t crawling through mud), also not benevolent in your eyes? > > Or does benevolence have nothing to do with it - the drill instructor is simply trying to determine who is good enough? A drill instructor isn’t omnipotent, and he’s working with volunteers. If he could just snap his fingers and download whatever training they want into their heads, then making them do it the hard way instead would be pointless sadism. Especially since if he was omnipotent and omnibenevolent then what’s the point of an army ? > [@straggler](#): > > Unless the troops regard passing as (at least partially) a _reward_ for their efforts. Rewards have to be earned. The hard way. A reward for pointless suffering is one I’d happily pass on if I meant I could do without the suffering. Especially since it’s highly unlikely that there would BE any reward. > [@straggler](#): > > What is that, exactly? > > Remembering that rewards **have to be earned**. No, they don’t. And we aren’t volunteers, and God doesn’t have limited resources. An omnimax god doesn’t need to test anyone; he already knows the answer. An omnimax god wouldn’t allow any suffering; he wouldn’t even construct his creations to be capable of suffering. The world does not fit an omnimax god, and your arguments fail to show otherwise. All you have done is “solve” the Problem of Evil by creating a version of God that IS evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/280 "2009-07-26T19:16:49Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Remembering that rewards **have to be earned**. Hmm, so our suffering on earth is _necessary_ to earn our reward. So…what about those fortunate people who live lives without much suffering? After all, it’s all relative. Compared to many of the poorest people in the world, we in the developed world generally lead very cushy lives. Will will be denied our heavenly rewards, even if we accept jesus as our saviour? Apparently the answer is “yes” since suffering is necessary. Or is having a papercut once in your life sufficient suffering to earn the eternal reward? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=15)