# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/281 "2009-07-26T19:23:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A drill instructor isn’t omnipotent, and he’s working with volunteers. If he could just snap his fingers and download whatever training they want into their heads, then making them do it the hard way instead would be pointless sadism. Especially since if he was omnipotent and omnibenevolent then what’s the point of an army? Unless the participants regarded “graduating” as reward for their efforts. Something that had to be earned. > [@](#): > > A reward for pointless suffering is one I’d happily pass on if I meant I could do without the suffering. Especially since it’s highly unlikely that there would BE any reward. According to Islam, you’ve chosen this existence, and there IS a reward. > [@](#): > > An omnimax god doesn’t need to test anyone False premise. God only does what is good, not what what he can’t get out of otherwise doing > [@](#): > > he already knows the answer. God is not testing to find out answers. For someone who is one of the most vocal critics of religion on this board, your knowledge of religion seems pretty dim. > [@](#): > > An omnimax god wouldn’t allow any suffering; he wouldn’t even construct his creations to be capable of suffering. Eternal paradise is the ultimate reward. Rewards have to be earned. Explain how such a paradise could be earned in a world of no suffering. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/282 "2009-07-26T19:25:00Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Hmm, so our suffering on earth is _necessary_ to earn our reward. > > So…what about those fortunate people who live lives without much suffering? > After all, it’s all relative. Compared to many of the poorest people in the world, we in the developed world generally lead very cushy lives. True, some suffer more than others. Ultimately, it’s our character that is getting tested. Suffering is just one of the many tools at the tester’s disposal. > [@](#): > > Will will be denied our heavenly rewards, even if we accept jesus as our saviour? > Apparently the answer is “yes” since suffering is necessary. > Or is having a papercut once in your life sufficient suffering to earn the eternal reward? No idea. Some Christians seem to think so, others disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/283 "2009-07-26T19:53:50Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > No idea. Some Christians seem to think so, others disagree. The question is rhetorical really. The point is, either answer to the question seems unacceptable. If suffering is necessary, then those unlucky enough _not_ to get their 5-sufferings a day, can’t get into heaven. If it’s not necessary, then it implies that god is not omnimax. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/284 "2009-07-26T19:55:51Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The question is rhetorical really. The point is, either answer to the question seems unacceptable. > > If suffering is necessary, then those unlucky enough _not_ to get their 5-sufferings a day, can’t get into heaven. > > If it’s not necessary, then it implies that god is not omnimax. Are you saying that some people live their entire lives without any suffering? Unless you’re referring to stillborn fetuses or, to be a bit more generous, some babies, that’s obviously not true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/285 "2009-07-26T20:00:13Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Unless the participants regarded “graduating” as reward for their efforts. Something that had to be earned. Except people aren’t being given any choice in the matter, and the whole exercise is pointless. By your logic it would be perfectly moral to kidnap a woman off the street, rape her and force her into sexual slavery because you are giving her the “reward” of being a highly trained sex toy. The fact that she never asked for the “reward” or was given a choice in the matter is irrelevant; she should be grateful for her abuse at your hands. > [@straggler](#): > > According to Islam, you’ve chosen this existence, and there IS a reward. That’s not just baseless like religions always are, but wrong on the face of it. _I_ chose no such thing. And Islam is only one sect, anyway. > [@straggler](#): > > False premise. God only does what is good, not what what he can’t get out of otherwise doing It’s not false; for an omnimax god inflicting any suffering at all is not good _ **because** _ it’s unnecessary. > [@straggler](#): > > God is not testing to find out answers. For someone who is one of the most vocal critics of religion on this board, your knowledge of religion seems pretty dim. No, it’s just that your ideas are foolish. If God isn’t “testing” for answers, then he isn’t “testing” at all, he’s just torturing. > [@straggler](#): > > Eternal paradise is the ultimate reward. Rewards have to be earned. Explain how such a paradise could be earned in a world of no suffering. It doesn’t need to be earned; an omnibenevolent god would just start and end with the eternal paradise. And frankly, I don’t want ANYTHING from your demon god, even if he was real. Nor do I for one moment that a monster like you are speaking of would put anyone but fellow monsters in paradise, if them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/286 "2009-07-26T20:12:21Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > True, some suffer more than others. Ultimately, it’s our character that is getting tested. Suffering is just one of the many tools at the tester’s disposal. Why would an omnsicient God need to run any tests? He would already know the results. Your inane question about whether “rewards need to be earned,” really ducks the question, since what we’re talking about is undeserved suffering. Does everyone who suffers deserve it, or does God sometimes let people suffer who don’t deserev it? Please spare me any more of your nonsensical obfuscations about how God is a even worse prick after death than in life. I’m asking you, IN LIFE is all suffering deserved? Because here’s the thing, if God allows undeserved suffering, he has no right to impose any conditions for “reward.” He’s breaking his own rules. He’s a sinner. The worst of all time. Incidentally, Paul said in the epistles that good deeds can’t save you, no matter how good a person you are, so it isn’t true (at least not according to your Bible), that Heaven cane be “earned.” Paul actually say that it _can’t_ be earned. It’s just a gift ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/287 "2009-07-26T20:20:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except people aren’t being given any choice in the matter, and the whole exercise is pointless. Read the thread. This whole discussion kicked off because I said to Mijin “_We did choose this life, at least according to Muslims (not sure about the other religions). What’s your Islamic-based defence?_” > [@](#): > > That’s not just baseless like religions always are, but wrong on the face of it. _I_ chose no such thing. And Islam is only one sect, anyway. Err, no, it’s quite correct, according to Islamic doctrine. You’re wrong. > [@](#): > > It’s not false; for an omnimax god inflicting any suffering at all is not good _ **because** _ it’s unnecessary. Unless the “good” thing to do is ensure people earn their rewards. Explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. > [@](#): > > No, it’s just that your ideas are foolish. If God isn’t “testing” for answers, then he isn’t “testing” at all, he’s just torturing. Or, to put it another way, rewards have to be earned. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t need to be earned; an omnibenevolent god would just start and end with the eternal paradise. Unless the idea that **rewards have to be earned** is good and righteous. > [@](#): > > And frankly, I don’t want ANYTHING from your demon god, even if he was real. Nor do I for one moment that a monster like you are speaking of would put anyone but fellow monsters in paradise, if them. This is really just speculation, there’s no meat here for me to digest. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/288 "2009-07-26T20:24:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why would an omnsicient God need to run any tests? He would already know the results. _aaaaaannnnndddd here we go again_. Because rewards have to be earned. > [@](#): > > Your inane question about whether “rewards need to be earned,” really ducks the question, since what we’re talking about is undeserved suffering. Explain how you can earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. > [@](#): > > Does everyone who suffers deserve it, or does God sometimes let people suffer who don’t deserev it? Suffering is all part of the test. It’s a part of earning the reward. > [@](#): > > Please spare me any more of your nonsensical obfuscations about how God is a even worse prick after death than in life. I’m asking you, IN LIFE is all suffering deserved? According to God? Yes. But if you think earthly suffering is pretty severe, you need to widen your scope. On the suffering scale, earthy suffering isn’t even a 1. > [@](#): > > Because here’s the thing, if God allows undeserved suffering, he has no right to impose any conditions for “reward.” Who said God allows undeserved suffering? I only defend the positions that I state, not the ones you ascribe to me. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, Paul said in the epistles that good deeds can’t save you, no matter how good a person you are, so it isn’t true (at least not according to your Bible), that Heaven cane be “earned.” Paul actually say that it _can’t_ be earned. It’s just a gift My Bible? What on earth are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/289 "2009-07-26T20:35:01Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Are you saying that some people live their entire lives without any suffering? Unless you’re referring to stillborn fetuses or, to be a bit more generous, some babies, that’s obviously not true. No, I’m not saying that. The fact of the matter is, some people suffer much more than others. So, what level of suffering is sufficient? If it’s a low level, why does god inflict unnecessary extra suffering on the others? OTOH, if the most extreme suffering is necessary, then those of us who _aren’t_ gang-raped every day, are doomed, come judgement day. > [@](#): > > This whole discussion kicked off because I said to Mijin “We did choose this life, at least according to Muslims (not sure about the other religions). What’s your Islamic-based defence?” And you honestly think you successfully defended your point on that, don’t you? This was the last thing you said on the matter: _“If you choose to worship God, you’re choosing to exist. I can’t put it any more clearly than that”._ 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/290 "2009-07-26T20:45:43Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Err, no, it’s quite correct, according to Islamic doctrine. You’re wrong. Islamic doctrine is irrelevant. I am my memories; I began in this world, not some hypothetical pre-life. > [@straggler](#): > > Unless the “good” thing to do is ensure people earn their rewards. Explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. A meaningless charade. An omnimax god wouldn’t created flawed beings to begin with. EVERYONE would be worthy, so there’s no point in a sadistic ritual to make people “earn” something. And if the mortals in question aren’t worthy, it’s only because God wanted them to be that way, which further underlines what a charade it is. > [@straggler](#): > > This is really just speculation, there’s no meat here for me to digest. No, it’s just pointing out the obvious. You postulate a god who is a monster; it’s to be expected that he would behave as monstrously after life as he does during it. > [@straggler](#): > > According to God? Yes. But if you think earthly suffering is pretty severe, you need to widen your scope. On the suffering scale, earthy suffering isn’t even a 1. An attitude that demonstrates yet again the utter evil of religion. A principle that also makes Hell “meaningless”, since it could also be made worse. The suffering beings there could be enhanced to be able to suffer even more, for example; so they should stop whining. And by that logic we shouldn’t be concerned about hell, either. “Endless suffering ? Why, that’s nothing compared to endless suffering squared, so it’s silly to worry about it.” The suffering that happens now, in the real world is just as bad regardless of the existence of an afterlife or not. > [@straggler](#): > > Who said God allows undeserved suffering? ALL suffering is undeserved if god is omnipotent & omniscient. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/291 "2009-07-26T20:47:00Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > _aaaaaannnnndddd here we go again_. Because rewards have to be earned. This is not an answer to my question. Why does God have to “test” people if he already knows what the results will be? He already knows everybody’s “character.” There is nothing he needs to learn (or even CAN learn) about a single human being. > [@](#): > > Explain how you can earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. Why should you have to earn it? I didn’t agree to any of these conditions, and your God has no moral right to impose them. He needs to earn MY approval, I don’t have to earn his. > [@](#): > > Suffering is all part of the test. It’s a part of earning the reward. Why does God need to run tests? He already knows the results? Why can’t he just let everybody into Heaven as is? Why do they have to “earn” it? Why do they have to be punished if they _don’t_ earn it? What purpose does that serve? How can that be reconciled with a God who is good? > [@](#): > > According to God? Yes. So everyone who was tortured and murdered in the holocaust deserved it? Everyone who was killed on 9/11 deserved it? Harlequin babies deserve it? That’s some lovely fucking God you’ve got there. Where exactly did God say this, by the way. When you say “according to God,” what soursce are yiu referring to? Did God tell you that personally? Does he have a blog? How did you come by his personal statement on the matter? > [@](#): > > But if you think earthly suffering is pretty severe, you need to widen your scope. On the suffering scale, earthy suffering isn’t even a 1. You really need to drop this angle. It’s asinine beyond belief. Suffering on earth is already profoundly bad and more than sufficient to refute an omnimax God. Arguing that God is more evil after death is hardly a defense that God is good. It is logically impossible for ANY evil or suffering to coexist with an omnimax God, and to try to belittle the worst evils that befall humanity is just obtuse and childish. If you can honestly say that absolutely no evil on earth disturbs you, then I’d even call your mentality sociopathic. > [@](#): > > Who said God allows undeserved suffering? I said IF he does. Does he, yes or no? You apperently think he does not. If that’s the case, then there can be no such thing as immoral or evil behavior, because it’s impossible to do anything to another person that they don’t deserve. > [@](#): > > My Bible? What on earth are you talking about? Your Bible. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/292 "2009-07-26T20:47:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No, I’m not saying that. > > The fact of the matter is, some people suffer much more than others. > So, what level of suffering is sufficient? Suffering is one tool that can be used to test character. I have no idea how much is the limit that God would ascribe one person on earth. > [@](#): > > If it’s a low level, why does god inflict unnecessary extra suffering on the others? He doesn’t. > [@](#): > > OTOH, if the most extreme suffering is necessary, then those of us who _aren’t_ gang-raped every day, are doomed, come judgement day. Nope. > [@](#): > > And you honestly think you successfully defended your point on that, don’t you? Failed to convey it clearly enough.. perhaps. Failed to avoid opponents who are more interested in knocking down strawmen.. quite possibly. But failed to defend it? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _“If you choose to worship God, you’re choosing to exist. I can’t put it any more clearly than that”._ > > 😕 Part of worshiping God is to exist and worship him. Opting out of existence is not worshiping God, it’s not what God wants from us, hence, it’s not worship. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/293 "2009-07-26T20:57:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is not an answer to my question. Why does God have to “test” people if he already knows what the results will be? He already knows everybody’s “character.” There is nothing he needs to learn (or even CAN learn) about a single human being. Why do you continue to insist, in spite of all my protest, that the purpose of the test is for God to learn something? > [@](#): > > Why should you have to earn it? I didn’t agree to any of these conditions, and your God has no moral right to impose them. He needs to earn MY approval, I don’t have to earn his. According to Islam, yes you did agree to these conditions. Please read the whole thread, this is just wasting time. > [@](#): > > Why does God need to run tests? He already knows the results? Why do you continue to insist, in spite of all my protest, that the purpose of the test is for God to learn something? > [@](#): > > Why can’t he just let everybody into Heaven as is? Why do they have to “earn” it? Because the ultimate reward requires passing the ultimate test. Giving people something they haven’t earned **isn’t good** , and God only does good. > [@](#): > > Why do they have to be punished if they _don’t_ earn it? What purpose does that serve? How can that be reconciled with a God who is good? You’re asking why do people get punished when they break the rules? I don’t know.. because it’s the just thing to do? > [@](#): > > So everyone who was tortured and murdered in the holocaust deserved it? Everyone who was killed on 9/11 deserved it? Harlequin babies deserve it? That’s some lovely fucking God you’ve got there. Compared to other types of suffering that exist, this is not even a 1 on the suffering scale. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > But if you think earthly suffering is pretty severe, you need to widen your scope. On the suffering scale, earthy suffering isn’t even a 1. > > You really need to drop this angle. It’s asinine beyond belief. Suffering on earth is already profoundly bad and more than sufficient to refute an omnimax God. Cool, just stating something apparently makes it so. So I state the opposite. > [@](#): > > Arguing that God is more evil after death (strawman, continue) > [@](#): > > is hardly a defense that God is good. I agree! > [@](#): > > It is logically impossible for ANY evil or suffering to coexist with an omnimax God When did you sneak evil in to the equation? The topic is suffering. If you’re not good enough to argue suffering on its own, find some other thread. > [@](#): > > and to try to belittle the worst evils that befall humanity I don’t belittle it, the nature of the fact that it isn’t the worst kind of suffering belittles it. > [@](#): > > is just obtuse and childish. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > If you can honestly say that absolutely no evil on earth disturbs you (strawman, continue) > [@](#): > > then I’d even call your mentality sociopathic. Good thing I’m not saying it then, phew! > [@](#): > > I said IF he does. Does he, yes or no? You apperently think he does not. If that’s the case, then there can be no such thing as immoral or evil behavior, because it’s impossible to do anything to another person that they don’t deserve. > > Your Bible. What’s with this constant Bible talk? I don’t even own a Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/294 "2009-07-26T20:57:37Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Suffering is one tool that can be used to test character. But a omni- god wouldn’t need to do any such thing, therefore it’s pointless sadism. > [@straggler](#): > > He doesn’t. Yes, he does. ALL suffering is unnecessary when an omni- god is involved. > [@straggler](#): > > Failed to convey it clearly enough.. perhaps. Failed to avoid opponents who are more interested in knocking down strawmen.. quite possibly. But failed to defend it? I don’t think so. You’ve failed miserably, and in the process made your position out to be morally despicable with your “suffering on Earth is nothing” routine. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/295 "2009-07-26T21:04:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Islamic doctrine is irrelevant. I am my memories; I began in this world, not some hypothetical pre-life. Err.. but this whole line of conversation got started when I asked **Mijin** what his defence was of the Islamic position that we did exist before this life, and consented to worshiping God. Umm.. yeah, I’d say that makes it relevant. > [@](#): > > A meaningless charade. An omnimax god wouldn’t created flawed beings to begin with. Only the Creator is perfect, everything else is, by necessity of logic, flawed. > [@](#): > > EVERYONE would be worthy, so there’s no point in a sadistic ritual to make people “earn” something. Apparently there is, the omniscient being said so. > [@](#): > > And if the mortals in question aren’t worthy, it’s only because God wanted them to be that way, which further underlines what a charade it is. Divine pre-destination. Indeed, makes no sense to me, and I don’t defend it. Carry on. > [@](#): > > No, it’s just pointing out the obvious. You postulate a god who is a monster; it’s to be expected that he would behave as monstrously after life as he does during it. Sure, he might. But he’s promising he won’t, and while his track record (to you) seems monstrous, his track record also shows he doesn’t break promises. So, who’s to know? > [@](#): > > An attitude that demonstrates yet again the utter evil of religion. Or the narrow-mindedness of people who think that earthly suffering is anywhere near as bad as it can get. > [@](#): > > A principle that also makes Hell “meaningless”, since it could also be made worse. The suffering beings there could be enhanced to be able to suffer even more, for example; so they should stop whining. And by that logic we shouldn’t be concerned about hell, either. “Endless suffering ? Why, that’s nothing compared to endless suffering squared, so it’s silly to worry about it.” We could argue about the many forms of endless suffering, but people experience temporary suffering should first be more interested in having an end to _all_ suffering, don’t you think? > [@](#): > > The suffering that happens now, in the real world is just as bad regardless of the existence of an afterlife or not. An irrelevant platitude. > [@](#): > > ALL suffering is undeserved if god is omnipotent & omniscient. Please explain how you earn in the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/296 "2009-07-26T21:07:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Suffering is one tool that can be used to test character. > > But a omni- god wouldn’t need to do any such thing, therefore it’s pointless sadism. Why, in spite of all my protest, are you insisting that a theoretical God “needs” to test people? He does it because it’s good to ensure people **earn their rewards**. > [@](#): > > Yes, he does. ALL suffering is unnecessary when an omni- god is involved. Please explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Failed to convey it clearly enough.. perhaps. Failed to avoid opponents who are more interested in knocking down strawmen.. quite possibly. But failed to defend it? I don’t think so. > > You’ve failed miserably, and in the process made your position out to be morally despicable with your “suffering on Earth is nothing” routine. “Suffering on earth is nothing” routine? I must have missed it, was that before or after your “I build strawmen” routine? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/297 "2009-07-26T21:21:10Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Err.. but this whole line of conversation got started when I asked **Mijin** what his defence was of the Islamic position that we did exist before this life, and consented to worshiping God. Umm.. yeah, I’d say that makes it relevant. You said “Abrahamic God”. And regardless, the fact is I started in this world. My memories, and thus my self start here. > [@straggler](#): > > Only the Creator is perfect, everything else is, by necessity of logic, flawed. Wrong, an omnipotent god could create everything perfect, by definition. > [@straggler](#): > > Apparently there is, the omniscient being said so. Which make him a liar assuming he was real. > [@straggler](#): > > Divine pre-destination. Indeed, makes no sense to me, and I don’t defend it. Carry on. You do defending when you say the universe was created by an omniscient omnipotent god. > [@straggler](#): > > Sure, he might. But he’s promising he won’t, and while his track record (to you) seems monstrous, his track record also shows he doesn’t break promises. So, who’s to know? Of course he breaks promises; his mythic history is of a sadistic, erratic, untrustworthy sadistic megalomaniac. I’d sooner trust Hitler. > [@straggler](#): > > Or the narrow-mindedness of people who think that earthly suffering is anywhere near as bad as it can get. It’s bad enough in some cases to drive people insane. That’s plenty ad enough; and as pointed out again and again even the smallest amount of suffering in inconsistent with omnibenevolence. And your handwaving away of “Earthly suffering” as unimportant is exactly the attitude that can and has justified any atrocity. It’s the philosophy of someone who could rape children and murder children, and dismiss their suffering and deaths with a shrug. > [@straggler](#): > > We could argue about the many forms of endless suffering, but people experience temporary suffering should first be more interested in having an end to _all_ suffering, don’t you think? You are ignoring the point that by your own “logic” all suffering should just be ignored, including that of Hell. > [@straggler](#): > > An irrelevant platitude. Hardly irrelevant; it points out the fundamental falsehood of your position. Pain is just as painful regardless of the future. > [@straggler](#): > > Please explain how you earn in the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. Why should anyone earn anything like that ? You are describing a god who puts people though a sadistic charade. The only good, deserving people in your scenario would be those who rejected your monster-god completely. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/298 "2009-07-26T21:22:24Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > “Suffering on earth is nothing” routine? I must have missed it, was that before or after your “I build strawmen” routine? Now you are being silly ( to be polite about it ); from the very beginning you’ve claimed that suffering on Earth is nothing, doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/299 "2009-07-26T21:37:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You said “Abrahamic God”. And regardless, the fact is I started in this world. My memories, and thus my self start here. But not according to Islam. This conversation started when I challenged Mijin to provide a Islamic-based defence. You may as well drop in to a poker game, start losing, but then start arguing with everyone that you were playing blackjack. > [@](#): > > Wrong, an omnipotent god could create everything perfect, by definition. Who is arguing he couldn’t? > [@](#): > > Which make him a liar assuming he was real. Please give an example. > [@](#): > > You do defending when you say the universe was created by an omniscient omnipotent god. I can’t reconcile it. There’s a difference between that, and believing it. We don’t understand all the _whys_ of quantum physics, but we observe enough to believe it. > [@](#): > > Of course he breaks promises; his mythic history is of a sadistic, erratic, untrustworthy sadistic megalomaniac. I’d sooner trust Hitler. The Islamic God? Example please. > [@](#): > > It’s bad enough in some cases to drive people insane. That’s plenty ad enough; and as pointed out again and again even the smallest amount of suffering in inconsistent with omnibenevolence. Please explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. > [@](#): > > And your handwaving away of “Earthly suffering” as unimportant is exactly the attitude that can and has justified any atrocity. It’s the philosophy of someone who could rape children and murder children, and dismiss their suffering and deaths with a shrug. Who was dismissing it with a shrug, other than your strawman? Every person who has ever suffered to any extent on earth will see an end to their suffering here on earth. Period. They will then be resurrected, and any “mental scarring” of that suffering will be removed. Then what will your argument be? > [@](#): > > You are ignoring the point that by your own “logic” all suffering should just be ignored, including that of Hell. Uhm, I’m definitely not arguing that the suffering of hell should be ignored. > [@](#): > > Hardly irrelevant; it points out the fundamental falsehood of your position. Pain is just as painful regardless of the future. No one is arguing it, other than your strawman. > [@](#): > > Why should anyone earn anything like that ? You are describing a god who puts people though a sadistic charade. The only good, deserving people in your scenario would be those who rejected your monster-god completely. Please explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/300 "2009-07-26T21:38:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Now you are being silly ( to be polite about it ); from the very beginning you’ve claimed that suffering on Earth is nothing, doesn’t count. Uhm, no. I said compared to the other types of suffering, it’s less than 1 on the scale. Which it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=16)