# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/21 "2009-07-19T18:32:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > What sort of piss-weak god _do_ you worship? Why doesn’t this god have the power to let the mortal have their cake and eat it too, living a life without constant rape and then still getting the good ending? Rewards have to be earned if you want to call yourself “just”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/22 "2009-07-19T18:34:52Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Rewards have to be earned if you want to call yourself “just”. Straggler, can you please explain why we should believe in this God of yours rather than Odin, Zeus, Mithra, Marduk, Morrigan, or Thor? I’m gonna need a particularly good explanation in the case of Thor. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/23 "2009-07-19T18:37:22Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > F Not only do they go for these strange examples, but _any sane person would choose an earthly torment for eternal paradise_. Not unless they felt, as I do, that it’s an insane set-up. A sociopath could play a similar game. Let me sexually torture you every hour on top of the hour for ten years and then I’ll give you a billion dollars and your own private island where you can live happily for the rest of your life. Would you love that sociopath? Would you gladly submit to the sexual torture and put all your hopes in some mythical-sounding pipedream that you have no proof even exists? Or would you say “HELL NAW!” That’s my whole problem with the Christian logic, my tendency to say “HELL NAW!!!” to everything. So I guess that makes me insane. If Christians didn’t put such an emphasis on God being loving and wanting a personal relationship with you, then the harping about suffering would be moot. But because Christians in fact _do_ emphasize that God loves you more than you love yourself, then it stands to reason that we can criticize the theology when it chooses to gloss over all personal suffering with stupid platitudes about heaven and God moving in mysterious ways. I much prefer the idea of an indifferent, cold God who’s just watching television on a universal-sized TV screen. That kind of God makes sense, given the reality. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/24 "2009-07-19T18:38:23Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Fair enough. But why is it when God bashers/atheists want to present some evidence against God, whether in regards to his existence, his benevolence, theism vs atheism, etc, and they clearly want to present _suffering_ as their evidence, do they pick such silly and comparatively mild examples? “Mild?” Was the Holocaust mild? Your argument is asinine. It’s like trying to argue that a stovetop can’t really burn you because the sun is so much hotter. Actually it’s like trying to argue that the SUN isn’t really hot, because you believe in a supernatural sun that’s way hotter than regular stars. I think you’re being incredibly insulting and belittling to people who suffer incredibly in real life, and you don’t make it better by saying God can make it hurt even worse after death. You’re also completely missing the point that it’s logically impossible for an omnimx God to allow ANY suffering, earthly or otherwise. > [@](#): > > Not only do they go for these strange examples, but _any sane person would choose an earthly torment for eternal paradise_. I don’t want any part of your paradise, but the real point you’re missing is that good God would ever make the DEMAND that anyone (especially utter innocents) suffer earthly torment. There is no conceivable justification for it because there is no conceivable _necessity_ for it. It’s also incredibly weird to try to defend God’s sadism on earth by arguing that he’s an even bigger scumbag after death. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/25 "2009-07-19T18:42:42Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Why did you go for rape, torture and childhood leukemia as your examples? Why not go for runny noses, cold weather and peak hour traffic? > > Seems like you wanted to go for some _extreme_ examples of suffering, yes? > > Well, you failed pretty badly if this is the worst you could come up with. You cannot address the Problem of Evil by trying to belittle evil. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/26 "2009-07-19T18:45:22Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > No problem. Let’s assume that those who suffer the worst in this life, have it the best in the next life. > > How much suffering would you be prepared to go through during your 90 or so years of earthly existence? How can a omnibenevolent God demand any suffering at all? It’s impossible for an omnimax God to need a reason, therefore it’s impossible for God to be omnimax. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/27 "2009-07-19T18:45:25Z")
This is ridiculous. You invented a place called hell, which is defined by comparison to earthly suffering - viz., the suffering in hell is _worse than that_ by _a lot_ – and now somehow it’s supposed to lend credibility to your position that god exists? The suffering in this world is brought up to point out the fact that there is suffering, and that your god is a douchebag if he’s real, not to “prove” that god must not be real. If the examples given of actual human suffering aren’t bad enough for us to feel like your god isn’t that appealing, tell us, what’s hell like? What happens there? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/28 "2009-07-19T18:45:55Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Fair enough. But why is it when God bashers/atheists want to present some evidence against God, whether in regards to his existence, his benevolence, theism vs atheism, etc, and they clearly want to present _suffering_ as their evidence, do they pick such silly and comparatively mild examples? Suffering is relative, so what some people think are severe misfortunes may look “silly and comparatively mild examples” to you. But the point remains that we live in a world in which horrible things happen to innocent people on a constant basis. You’re going to have hard time convincing me that rape by machete, full-body 3rd degree burns resulting from a drunk driving incident, and children born with painful and disfiguring diseases does not constitute examples of suffering that call into question the sweet mercifulness of an all-loving God. > [@](#): > > Not only do they go for these strange examples, but _any sane person would choose an earthly torment for eternal paradise_. I’m not getting the point of this. Just because suffering in hell is supposedly worse than the suffering on earth, why is that an argument for God’s existence? And, really, why would anyone willingly and joyfully choose to worship an extortionist? If this was a person we were talking about, we’d have locked them up a long time ago, if not electrocuted them for crimes against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/29 "2009-07-19T19:07:13Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Let’s assume that those who suffer the worst in this life, have it the best in the next life. > > How much suffering would you be prepared to go through during your 90 or so years of earthly existence? Lets rephrase that question. You, and everyone else, are the inmates of a prison. The length of your sentance is determined arbitarily. The all-powerful govenor has installed CCTV, covering every angle of the prison. He has arranged it so that upon your release you will receive a sum of money, gving you the opportunity to to set-up your new life. The amount you are given is determined by how badly you are treated by your fellow inmates and the guards. You earn dollars for receiving abuse, beatings and suffering rape. You are asking me if I’d be willing to pick fights with gang-members and how often I’d bend over for the soap in the shower. Can you not see how absurd that is? Some questions for you Straggler. Do you believe in the existence of hell? If so, what crimes do you believe merit being committed to eternal torture? Do you beleive that the only purpose of life is to determine the fate of your eternal soul? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/30 "2009-07-19T19:11:16Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t believe you can _“…point out the flaws in any religious interpretation…”_ with _ **anything but** _ a form of witnessing. > > Do you? Yes. If a religion is described to one, one can point out the contradictions it contains, both with itself and with empirical evidence. Perhaps a religion exists which is free of contradictions. I’m not familiar with it, but I’ll accept the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/31 "2009-07-19T19:25:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > … And historically, “you’ll be rewarded in the afterlife” has been used far too often as a way of excusing NOT helping those who are suffering in real life. Long-haired preachers come out every night, Try to tell you what’s wrong and what’s right; But when asked how 'bout something to eat They will answer with voices so sweet: \* You will eat, bye and bye, In that glorious land above the sky; Work and pray live on hay, You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.\* [_The Preacher and the Slave_ by Joe Hill (1911)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Preacher_and_the_Slave) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/32 "2009-07-19T19:34:52Z")
**straggler** , The way I see your argument is this; If I want to be truly blessed when this life is over, I should go out and rob and beat homeless people. After all, they are suffering in this life. I should maim and torture young children. Maybe disfigure a few people by setting them on fire. Not killing anyone, you understand, but leaving them alive, hurting and of course suffering so as these people will have an eternal reward. During the course of my trial, I should accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and ask for forgiveness. When I am imprisoned I will suffer for the rest of my days. Both from the abuse from the other inmates, and from the memories of the horrors I have inflicted on others. And it would horrify me, because I am a basically good person. I would have to live with the sounds of the screams and the look on the faces of the people I chose to harm to give them a greater reward in the kingdom of heaven. Could I then sit at god’s footstool? SSG Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Euphoria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Euphoria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphoria)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/33 "2009-07-19T19:48:33Z")
I believe that organized religion is man’s agenda. Read the histories of organized religions to see how a few with a message can manipulate and control the masses. What is a better way to control a society than to convince them that a god in the skies is watching their every move and will punish them eternally if they do the wrong things? Let’s not forget the business factor of religion. Religion=big business. I look at organized religion and spirituality in two different lights. I am very questioning of organized religion, but I have my own spiritual beliefs. I can believe in a higher power without having to dish out the greenbacks. That’s my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/34 "2009-07-19T21:00:01Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > No problem. Let’s assume that those who suffer the worst in this life, have it the best in the next life. > > How much suffering would you be prepared to go through during your 90 or so years of earthly existence? Suffering here is a sure thing. But on the off chance a sky god has a nifty place for an eternity of bliss, should you think" I got Lukemia ,I had my legs cut off in a car accident, I went blind at the age of 5. Damn did I get lucky" Just think how good I am going to have it in this place priests and shamans assure me is there. Yea me. It is a stupid argument because your heaven does not exist. You can not be assured you just have been dealt a crappy life. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/35 "2009-07-19T21:46:35Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > But it got me thinking. Why do atheists so often point to the suffering in this world to argue _against_ God? Because most people pray to God to give them health and happiness, and often say that everything in the world that is good is His, and everything bad is due to Human Fault or Bad Luck. For instance, there was a thread a while back about a plane which nearly crashed, except for the pilot was able to “miraculously” bring it down safely. The popular Christian media held it up the miracle as a proof of God. Anyone with half a brain noted that you could just as easily that God caused the plane to short out and it was the skill of someone who worked really hard to get good at his job that brought it down safe. The argument might be not-in-keeping with official Christian theology, but practically no-one actually follows any of the various branches of official Christian theology much beyond in name only. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/36 "2009-07-20T05:11:13Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Fair enough. But why is it when God bashers/atheists want to present some evidence against God, whether in regards to his existence, his benevolence, theism vs atheism, etc, and they clearly want to present _suffering_ as their evidence, do they pick such silly and comparatively mild examples? Not only do they go for these strange examples, but _any sane person would choose an earthly torment for eternal paradise_. > > Whatever point an atheist is making when he/she references earthly suffering, I sure can’t figure it out. Generally speaking, atheists don’t _believe_ in an afterlife. So generally when pulling up examples of suffering we’re going to stick to the earthly kind, cause that exists. Getting upset at atheists using earthly rather than unearthly suffering in their POE arguements is like getting mad at biologists for describing the evolution of horses instead of the _much_ more interesting unicorn family tree. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/37 "2009-07-20T05:53:56Z")
I’m an atheist, but for me the suffering doesn’t offer proof that there is no God. The suffering does offer proof that if there is a God, he is a complete son of a bitch and does not deserve to be worshipped by me. If anything, He should be looking at how I live my life as a role model (I don’t think I’ve ever caused even one plague). ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/38 "2009-07-20T07:51:51Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Fair enough. But why is it when God bashers/atheists want to present some evidence against God, whether in regards to his existence, his benevolence, theism vs atheism, etc, and they clearly want to present _suffering_ as their evidence, do they pick such silly and comparatively mild examples? Not only do they go for these strange examples, but _any sane person would choose an earthly torment for eternal paradise_. > > Whatever point an atheist is making when he/she references earthly suffering, I sure can’t figure it out. Well, no sane person would accept your premise. Anyway, pointing out the pain, rapes, murders, tortures of people isn’t an argument against _a_ god; only against _your_ god because, according to his PR people, he’s a good, just, compassionate, merciful, loving god. Well, such a person wouldn’t torture, rape, murder and/or torture people. Moreover, emotional blackmail would cut against any concept of such a god. There’s no guarantee though that simply suffering in this world gets one an eternity of paradise. Indeed, the deciding factor has never been how much one suffers here; rather it seems, how much one can suppress one’s rational faculties and proclaim a faith in said god, and to do the rites and rituals and all that jazz. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/39 "2009-07-20T07:54:19Z")
I don’t get it. Is your point that the worst suffering in this world is peanuts compared to the eternal and unimaginably cruel suffering your God reserves to some of us, and that’s a proof that God’s kind ? I’m sorry, but that totally fails to parse on this side of the screen. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/40 "2009-07-20T08:10:08Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > But it got me thinking. Why do atheists so often point to the suffering in this world to argue _against_ God? If we take the Abrahamic faiths as our example, we know that the inhabitants of hell will suffer far beyond what any person has suffered in this world. Islamic tradition narrates the story of an inhabitant of the hellfire who will spend every waking moment thinking that nobody could be suffering as much as he is, when in actual fact, he will be the person who is suffering the least. Judaism, as I learned it, has no hell and no suffering in hell, so you goyim can keep the concept. Even when I used to believe in God I didn’t believe in hell. My God wasn’t a sick piece of scum. > [@](#): > > The Abrahamic faiths also seem to indicate pretty strongly that those who suffer _the worst_ in this life, will have it “the best” in the next life. Cite? Judaism certainly doesn’t believe that, and I’ve never seen evidence Christianity does. If you want to make up your own religion, be my guest. > [@](#): > > If eternal bliss was offered to me for the price of an earthly torment, _I’d_ take it. > > Wouldn’t anyone? Suffering today for the vague and unsubstantiated rumor of a better life to come? Only an idiot would choose that. Let’s see the video at least. Your god is slimier than a used car salesman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=3)