# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/81 "2009-07-20T23:47:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > God did not create the classroom, we humans did. That **directly contradicts** [your link](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=651): “The physical world, in which we now live, was created to provide a classroom for young souls to learn about themselves and others.” Making up random nonsense and changing your stance from post to post is not an effective way to argue … . ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/82 "2009-07-20T23:53:31Z")
Another response to the question of suffering that I hear frequently is that those who suffer the most often have the most faith in God and are generally more at peace than those who aren’t suffering. People who believe this usually cite inspirational “Chicken Soup for the Soul” stories about handicapped people who run marathon races and rescue kittens stuck in trees. Suffering, they say, not only makes those people stronger but they inspire the rest of us to have faith in God when we’re suffering. But there are plenty of people who had loads of faith in God who’s stories don’t make into the “Chicken Soup for the Soul” series. They don’t because they end up suffering horribly and tragically, with no happy ending until death arrives. God doesn’t give you more than you can handle…until he decides to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/83 "2009-07-20T23:53:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What you are missing here is that we are eternal and can’t be hurt in any way. Congratulations. You’ve just rationalized away the idea of right and wrong. If all pain is meaningless because we are all eternal souls then why is it wrong to hurt another human being? ---
**Author:** ![Stalingraduate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Stalingraduate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalingraduate)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/84 "2009-07-21T00:01:02Z")
I can’t help but notice that we keep using a Christianity-centric (perhaps Islamic-centric as well) view that God (if it exists) is for some reason supposed to be benevolent. A lot of folks are saying, “well, if God is an evil prick, then that’s not a god I would want to believe in.” If one actually believes in God, though, it’s not really a choice as to whether or not to believe. Belief is belief. It’s not a lifestyle or a diet. You can’t just change it. People these days may change their religion every other week, but theoretically religions are supposed to reflect the true beliefs of their followers, who would stop following if their beliefs diverted from the religion’s tenets. It’s possible to have a cruel, capricious God, and still believe in that god. Supposedly, people who believe in a particular deity do it because they actually, really do believe in it, not just for some expected reward. Look at the Old Testament God. Cruel and capricious as hell (even though the idea of hell wasn’t there at this point). Singles out an entire group of people, a “chosen people,” to toy with, letting the crap get persecuted out of them, making them walk through the desert for a ridiculous length of time, among other things. Decides for the hell of it to come down and kill the first born of a separate group because it was screwing with the first group. This is the kind of God that you were when you were playing Sim City and, after spending a huge portion of the game building your town into a metropolis, decided to subject it to fires, floods, and a big alien robot. Despite this, there are a lot of folks that believe in this kind of god. They’re called Jews. (Yes, I realize I am grossly oversimplifying Judaism, Jewish culture and Jewish mythology here) It’s not surprising that Judaism produces so many agnostics and atheists (I happen to be one of these “spiritually agnostic, culturally Jewish” folks). That said, I know a number of Jews who are pretty religious, and they don’t live in fear of God. They just accept the idea that we’re not supposed to know why God does what God does. Maybe it’s out of cruelty or good fun. Maybe there’s some other reason, a reason that’s actually pretty good and makes sense once you hear it directly from God. Hard to say unless you get contacted by the big guy directly. Or maybe the answer is revealed to you after you die. Saying “that’s not the kind of God I want!” is not an argument against there being a cruel God. The argument of “If God is real, then there shouldn’t be hatred and tragedy” also fails, because it’s fully possible that God thinks amputees and burn victims are hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/85 "2009-07-21T00:09:42Z")
> [@Stalingraduate](#): > > Saying “that’s not the kind of God I want!” is not an argument against there being a cruel God. The argument of “If God is real, then there shouldn’t be hatred and tragedy” also fails, because it’s fully possible that God thinks amputees and burn victims are hilarious. But if God is so cruel, how are we supposed to love and worship him? By just focusing on the flowers and rainbows and lollipops? ---
**Author:** ![Stalingraduate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Stalingraduate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalingraduate)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/86 "2009-07-21T00:14:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But if God is so cruel, how are we supposed to love and worship him? By just focusing on the flowers and rainbows and lollipops? Why are we supposed to love God? 😕 Then again, love doesn’t always happen for good reasons. I’ve known women who stay with the men who beat them, and abused children who cry at their sadistic parents’ funerals. Maybe people love God for when He/She/It _isn’t_ cruel. If God has been beating the crap out of you for most of your life, and then for one day decides to be nice and give you that big raise, you know what people say? “Thank God!” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/87 "2009-07-21T00:31:53Z")
> [@Stalingraduate](#): > > Why are we supposed to love God? 😕 Well, the 10 Commandments tell us that if we want his steadfast love, we’ve got to love him back and keep his law. I’m just saying…it’s kind of hard not to be a blasphemer if God finds mutilation and torture _hilarious_. It’s not just Christians who talk about God having love for his creation. > [@](#): > > Then again, love doesn’t always happen for good reasons. I’ve known women who stay with the men who beat them, and abused children who cry at their sadistic parents’ funerals. > > Maybe people love God for when He/She/It _isn’t_ cruel. If God has been beating the crap out of you for most of your life, and then for one day decides to be nice and give you that big raise, you know what people say? “Thank God!” And it doesn’t make sense. It would be one thing if people would acknowledge that their love for God doesn’t make sense. But instead they rationalize it in a million contradictory ways, causing non-believers to drift further and further away from them and their god. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/88 "2009-07-21T00:33:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I wrote that from what I learned in my near death experience. Bad dream, you mean. According to your own records, you didn’t have an NDE. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/89 "2009-07-21T04:13:37Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > That **directly contradicts** [your link](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=651): “The physical world, in which we now live, was created to provide a classroom for young souls to learn about themselves and others.” > > Making up random nonsense and changing your stance from post to post is not an effective way to argue … . I should have said the evil, then. I am sure most understood. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/90 "2009-07-21T04:15:28Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Congratulations. You’ve just rationalized away the idea of right and wrong. > > If all pain is meaningless because we are all eternal souls then why is it wrong to hurt another human being? That is not what I said. Nor did I change right and wrong. You don’t wish to understand I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/91 "2009-07-21T05:23:06Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I understand that the problem of evil goes away without omni\* - which naturally led me to wonder where the tradition of omni\* came from. I think that’d go hand in hand with aggressive\* monotheism : upon the consolidation of manygods into monogod, the one god naturally had to take the powers of all the minions, and even be more powerful than the pantheon combined. Otherwise the religious pissing contest would be all skewed in favor of pantheism : they could just zerg the monogod, or something. So you start with a single Gawd that knows more, can do more, and is less of a random evil jerkwad than the older gods of the neighbouring tribes. Considering the hijinks of the Roman gods, the latter is a far cry from omnibenevolence, but still ;). From that point on, whenever the monotheistic group encounters another religious group, be they pantheists or monotheists as well, the Monogod can’t but take from them whatever attributes He doesn’t have yet - if He’s the one true God, He must beat all the other gods, He can’t be the one true God if some other god can, I dunno, stop the Sun dead in its tracks and He can’t. Since Buddha is omnibenevolent, and Odin is omniscient (or nigh-omniscient ? I must confess my Norse lore ain’t what it used to be. **Skald** , an expert counsel if you please ?), and there’s a god out there for every single power and every natural phenomena, well… overtime, you’re bound to wind up with an omni\* God. So, IMO, the omni\* tradition comes from missionary PR, simple as that. You can’t convert anyone to your faith if your God ain’t better than theirs. \*not in the sense of being warlike, mind you, but in the sense of aiming to convert other people to the creed - a Christian novelty. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/92 "2009-07-21T07:41:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Not unless they felt, as I do, that it’s an insane set-up. > > A sociopath could play a similar game. Let me sexually torture you every hour on top of the hour for ten years and then I’ll give you a billion dollars and your own private island where you can live happily for the rest of your life. Would you love that sociopath? Would you gladly submit to the sexual torture and put all your hopes in some mythical-sounding pipedream that you have no proof even exists? Or would you say “HELL NAW!” That wasn’t the question. The question was, why do atheists point to such comparatively mild examples of suffering, when clearly trying to stress a point about the types of severe suffering that exist? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/93 "2009-07-21T07:44:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Mild?” Was the Holocaust mild? Compared to the eternal torment of hell as laid out in the Judeo-Christian traditions? Um, _ **yes** _, Diogenes. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/94 "2009-07-21T07:45:25Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > What sort of piss-weak god _do_ you worship? Why doesn’t this god have the power to let the mortal have their cake and eat it too, living a life without constant rape and then still getting the good ending? The Abrahmic God, by all accounts, does have such power. Your argument rests on a baseless assumption that you know the will of God. You clearly don’t. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/95 "2009-07-21T07:47:31Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This is ridiculous. > > You invented a place called hell, which is defined by comparison to earthly suffering - viz., the suffering in hell is _worse than that_ by _a lot_ – and now somehow it’s supposed to lend credibility to your position that god exists? Huh? Where on earth did I argue that? > [@](#): > > If the examples given of actual human suffering aren’t bad enough for us to feel like your god isn’t that appealing, tell us, what’s hell like? What happens there? If you are so poorly versed in these topics that you’ve never read the Abrahamic traditions’ accounts of hell, you are hopelessly ill-informed to be even participating in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/96 "2009-07-21T07:48:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not getting the point of this. Just because suffering in hell is supposedly worse than the suffering on earth, why is that an argument for God’s existence? Again, _who_ is arguing this? Are you in the right thread? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/97 "2009-07-21T07:51:17Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > That wasn’t the question. The question was, why do atheists point to such comparatively mild examples of suffering, when clearly trying to stress a point about the types of severe suffering that exist? Because nothing more is necessary. Unlike you, they don’t regard such things as rape and torture and the Holocaust as “silly” ( and by doing so, you demonstrate one of the many reasons religion is evil ). Nor have you presented evidence that sucking up to your demon god won’t result in being thrown into Hell anyway. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/98 "2009-07-21T07:51:39Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Lets rephrase that question. You, and everyone else, are the inmates of a prison. The length of your sentance is determined arbitarily. The all-powerful govenor has installed CCTV, covering every angle of the prison. He has arranged it so that upon your release you will receive a sum of money, gving you the opportunity to to set-up your new life. The amount you are given is determined by how badly you are treated by your fellow inmates and the guards. You earn dollars for receiving abuse, beatings and suffering rape. > > You are asking me if I’d be willing to pick fights with gang-members and how often I’d bend over for the soap in the shower. Can you not see how absurd that is? Yep, it’s patently absurd. The Abrahamic traditions talk about existence being eternal. Life on earth is merely a transitive, temporary state. Now, if you were to ask me if letting gang members beat me up would lead to an eternal paradise once my transitive earthly existence is over, then yes, I would give it serious consideration. > [@](#): > > Some questions for you Straggler. Do you believe in the existence of hell? If so, what crimes do you believe merit being committed to eternal torture? Do you beleive that the only purpose of life is to determine the fate of your eternal soul? I have absolutely no idea. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/99 "2009-07-21T07:53:34Z")
> [@SSG\_Schwartz](#): > > **straggler** , > The way I see your argument is this; If I want to be truly blessed when this life is over, I should go out and rob and beat homeless people. After all, they are suffering in this life. I should maim and torture young children. Maybe disfigure a few people by setting them on fire. Not killing anyone, you understand, but leaving them alive, hurting and of course suffering so as these people will have an eternal reward. During the course of my trial, I should accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and ask for forgiveness. When I am imprisoned I will suffer for the rest of my days. Both from the abuse from the other inmates, and from the memories of the horrors I have inflicted on others. And it would horrify me, because I am a basically good person. I would have to live with the sounds of the screams and the look on the faces of the people I chose to harm to give them a greater reward in the kingdom of heaven. Could I then sit at god’s footstool? > SSG Schwartz 😕 ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/100 "2009-07-21T07:54:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Suffering here is a sure thing. But on the off chance a sky god has a nifty place for an eternity of bliss, should you think" I got Lukemia ,I had my legs cut off in a car accident, I went blind at the age of 5. Damn did I get lucky" Just think how good I am going to have it in this place priests and shamans assure me is there. Yea me. > It is a stupid argument because your heaven does not exist. You can not be assured you just have been dealt a crappy life. “But heaven doesn’t really exist!”, if true, is not a relevant argument to this discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=6)