# It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against "God" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537 "2009-07-19T17:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/121 "2009-07-21T15:52:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a ludicrous argument. You’re dismissing all real human suffering by trying to invent imaginary suffering which you say is worse. > > It doesn’t help you at all, not the least of which becvause only an evil God would invent Hell, but also because you’re attempting to basically deny that evil exists on earth. You can’t solve the Problem of Evil by trying to deny that evil exists. This thesis is a failure fronm start to finish. If my “thesis” was trying to prove the existence of God, or that God isn’t evil, then what you’ve written here might be relevant. So save this dialogue for someone who comes along to argue as such. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/122 "2009-07-21T15:54:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh. All right then. God is a hateful son of a bitch, but we should praise him all the same. I suppose we should also be eternaly thankful to, say, Russia, for not nuking every last one of us. They can, they don’t, they’re merciful ! Hallelujah, tovarich ! Hosannah amensky ! _acts like someone who was trying to argue the opposite_ This is somewhat fun, but shouldn’t charades be played over in MPSIMS or The Game Room? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/123 "2009-07-21T15:57:30Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > So how come atheists are allowed to ask “Why does your God allow so much suffering in the world?”. > > If all I ever heard from atheists was “Your God doesn’t exist, so no point pondering over ‘what ifs’ or ‘how comes’”, then you’d have a point. But that’s not what I see. This is either extremely disingenuous or pathologically inflexible thinking. There’s nothing inconsistent with believing that god does not exist, and also asking how you reconcile your belief in god with human suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/124 "2009-07-21T16:01:48Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > So how come atheists are allowed to ask “Why does your God allow so much suffering in the world?”. This question derives from theists’ own assertions about God. You say God is all powerful, all good and all knowing. If all these things are true, then evil and suffering cannot logically exist, because nothing can happen that is not the will of God, and an omnibenevolent God cannot will evil and suffering. That means even if there is a God, he’s either unwilling to stop evil, unable to stop it or ignorant of it. There is no logical way in which God can possess all three of those '“omni” qualities and still allow evil. You have not come close to addressing this problem with your OWN conception of God, or really even shown that you fully comprehend what the POE _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/125 "2009-07-21T16:20:13Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > If my “thesis” was trying to prove the existence of God, or that God isn’t evil, then what you’ve written here might be relevant. So save this dialogue for someone who comes along to argue as such. So what is your thesis? Restate it in one sentence for those of us that are slow on the uptake. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/126 "2009-07-21T16:23:27Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > If my “thesis” was trying to prove the existence of God, or that God isn’t evil, then what you’ve written here might be relevant. So save this dialogue for someone who comes along to argue as such. What is your thesis, Straggler? Perhaps if you state it clearly, it’ll help the discussion stay on point. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/127 "2009-07-21T16:33:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You won’t find one neat little cite in the Bible or the Koran, but you can find numerous quotations for each individual attribute – omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence both in the Bible and in the Koran. In Islam, they are literal [NAMES of Allah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_Allah). > > In the Bible, you can find support for omnibenovelence in Psalms 18 and 19. > > Omnipotence is supported throught by description of God as “Almighty,” and Revelation 19:6 actually uses the word “omnipotent”. Omnipotent can mean several things, and does not necessarily imply the ability to do anything that can be expressed in words. The meaning of a word cannot always be gleaned from its components. For example, Odin was called “All-Father,” but that does not mean he was considered the genetic ancestor of humans, dwarfs, elves, or giants. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/128 "2009-07-21T16:51:14Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > So how come atheists are allowed to ask “Why does your God allow so much suffering in the world?”. > > If all I ever heard from atheists was “Your God doesn’t exist, so no point pondering over ‘what ifs’ or ‘how comes’”, then you’d have a point. But that’s not what I see. Look up proof by contradiction some time. Atheists have a strong enough case that we don’t have to just yell “no God” as an argument. The POE argument goes like this: 1. Assume a tri-omni god. 2. We can derive from this that this god will create a world with minimal (not no) suffering. 3. We examine our world, and see that there is not minimal suffering - not even close. We can easily imagine a world with free will and less suffering than there is today. 4. Therefore, the omnibenevolent god does not exist. I can see a person who gets this, and is somehow convinced that a monster god exists. I’m fine with that. However if this person tries to get others to worship or pray to this monster god, he’s a monster too. The only reasonable response is that in del Rey’s “For I’m a Jealous People.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/129 "2009-07-21T16:52:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Omnipotent can mean several things, and does not necessarily imply the ability to do anything that can be expressed in words. The meaning of a word cannot always be gleaned from its components. For example, Odin was called “All-Father,” but that does not mean he was considered the genetic ancestor of humans, dwarfs, elves, or giants. And Jesus saying God is his father did not literally mean that. Omnipotence commonly means the ability to do any logically possible thing, not to create a taco too big to eat. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/130 "2009-07-21T17:06:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > 1. Therefore, the omnibenevolent god does not exist. > I can see a person who gets this, and is somehow convinced that a monster god exists. I’m fine with that. However if this person tries to get others to worship or pray to this monster god, he’s a monster too. The only reasonable response is that in del Rey’s “For I’m a Jealous People.” There is a lot of ground between ‘God does not exist’ and ‘God is a monster’. The problem of evil is only a problem for one very narrowly defined kind of God which, incidentally, is why I am trying to understand how the idea of a omni\* God came about. It doesn’t seem to be a very credible kind of God and doesn’t seem to be supported by the bible (DtG’s excellent cites notwithstanding). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/131 "2009-07-21T17:10:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And Jesus saying God is his father did not literally mean that. Omnipotence commonly means the ability to do any logically possible thing, not to create a taco too big to eat. Quite so. And, as I note, other meanings of _omnipotent_ and _almighty_ exist. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/132 "2009-07-21T17:22:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This question derives from theists’ own assertions about God. You say God is all powerful, all good and all knowing. If all these things are true, then evil and suffering cannot logically exist, because nothing can happen that is not the will of God, and an omnibenevolent God cannot will evil and suffering. That means even if there is a God, he’s either unwilling to stop evil, unable to stop it or ignorant of it. There is no logical way in which God can possess all three of those '“omni” qualities and still allow evil. You have not come close to addressing this problem with your OWN conception of God, or really even shown that you fully comprehend what the POE _is_. God this, God that. My OP swipe was at the non-sensical arguments made by atheists when they produce illogical examples of suffering when they’re clearly searching for its most extreme cases, when arguing against God. Your post failed to address this entirely. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/133 "2009-07-21T17:23:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is either extremely disingenuous or pathologically inflexible thinking. There’s nothing inconsistent with believing that god does not exist, and also asking how you reconcile your belief in god with human suffering. For the sake of an argument, you either assume God exists, or you don’t. Not “I’ll assume he’s true when making my argument, then deny his existence when you make yours”. THAT is disingenuous arguing. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/134 "2009-07-21T17:24:42Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > So what is your thesis? Restate it in one sentence for those of us that are slow on the uptake. **It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against “God”**. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/135 "2009-07-21T17:26:11Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > **It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against “God”**. And why is that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/136 "2009-07-21T17:27:39Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > **It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against “God”**. It does, for certain values of “God”. The existence of suffering isn’t proof that no form of God exists. But it is proof that an omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent God doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/137 "2009-07-21T18:08:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And why is that? Because when atheists cite earthly examples of suffering while arguing some fact or point against God, they’re clearly thinking as hard as they can to come up with the worst kinds of suffering they can conjure. If the argument rests on a pre-supposition that God exists, earthly examples of suffering are nowhere near the top of the scale. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/138 "2009-07-21T18:13:22Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > **It makes no sense to point to the suffering in this world to argue against “God”**. It’s impossible for both suffering and an omnimax god to exist simultaneously, and we know, without a doubt, that suffering exists. Even in your own ridiculous argument that suffering after death is even worse than suffering in life, suffering STILL EXISTS. You aren’t making it go away by pointing to something worse. The existence of ANY evil refutes the existence of an omnimax God. I’ll make it simple. Answer these four questions. 1. Is God all powerful? 2. Is God all knowing? 3. Is God all good? 4. Does evil exist? If the answer to 4 is yes, then the answer to at least one of the first three has to be no. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/139 "2009-07-21T18:17:32Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The existence of suffering isn’t proof that no form of God exists. But it is proof that an omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent God doesn’t exist. POE is certainly a problem for an omni\* God but I don’t think it is quite a proof. It doesn’t address the 'God works in mysterious ways" defence for example. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537/140 "2009-07-21T18:19:29Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > If the argument rests on a pre-supposition that God exists, earthly examples of suffering are nowhere near the top of the scale. But if the sufferings of Hell far exceed the sufferings of Earth, that only makes the Problem of Evil \*worse \*for theists. If the fact of earthly suffering is inconsistent with the omnimax God hypothosis, the existence of Hell is even more inconsistent with it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-makes-no-sense-to-point-to-the-suffering-in-this-world-to-argue-against-god/503537.md?page=8)