# It may be time for Americans to consider splitting up the UNITED States of America **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994 "2018-01-06T19:14:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/221 "2018-01-11T17:18:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Where are these 200 countries you can live undocumented in? Mars? Try a planet closer to the sun. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/222 "2018-01-11T19:42:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A) you don’t know what my ideals are. You don’t have ideals of lower taxes, less regulation, and less govt intrusion into your life? If not, then you are correct, but you are doing a very poor job of supporting your ideals. If so, then yes, those are the ideals that create conditions that people more away from. > [@](#): > > B) cause and effect is important > . True, which is why it makes sense to look at tings that have worked historically, in this country and others, and look to emulate those causes that got those effects, as opposed to trying things over and over than have been proven not to work. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/223 "2018-01-11T19:46:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Try a planet closer to the sun. I don’t know of any planet that has 200 countries. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/224 "2018-01-11T20:23:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t have ideals of lower taxes, less regulation, and less govt intrusion into your life? > > If not, then you are correct, but you are doing a very poor job of supporting your ideals. > > If so, then yes, those are the ideals that create conditions that people more away from. > True, which is why it makes sense to look at tings that have worked historically, in this country and others, and look to emulate those causes that got those effects, as opposed to trying things over and over than have been proven not to work. Wrong. Less does not mean non existent. Why are qualifiers so difficult to parse? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t know of any planet that has 200 countries. That’s what the “or so” was for. It’s an approximation. Let me google that for you. > **[What does or so mean?](https://www.definitions.net/definition/or%20so)** > > Definition of or so in the Definitions.net dictionary. Meaning of or so. What does or so mean? Information and translations of or so in the most comprehensive dictionary definitions resource on the web. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/225 "2018-01-11T21:14:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. Less does not mean non existent. Why are qualifiers so difficult to parse? Did I say non-existent? No, I said lower. Where did you get “non existent” from? Not my post. It’s not even a matter of parsing, it’s a matter of simple reading here. > [@](#): > > That’s what the “or so” was for. It’s an approximation. Let me google that for you. > > [What does or so mean?](http://www.definitions.net/definition/or%20so) Two things there, first you were responding directly to “Where are these 200 countries you can live undocumented in? Mars?” not your or so comment. And also there is the fact that you claim that 200 or so will let you live in them undocumented. Sure, if someone had said, there’s about 200 countries on the planet, that’s an accurate enough statement that needs no correction, it’s only off by 5, and there isn’t really any ambiguity. If someone says that there are 200 counties on the planet in which you can live without documentation, then that is a very inaccurate statement, it is off by several dozen, and tries to imply that there are very few countries on this planet in which you do need documentation to live. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/226 "2018-01-17T00:03:31Z")
Of pertinence to this discussion: an alternative possibility that could happen before the progressives try to secede California from the Union: Part of rural California could ask, not to to secede, but to be recognized as the 51st state of “New California” and remain in the United States, leaving “Old” or “Prime” California as a smaller, marginalized state. This would not work out quite the way the left intended, as it would involve the most agriculturally rich part of the state, and also the most Red, cutting the electoral power of the original California. > [@](#): > > “Well, it’s been ungovernable for a long time. High taxes, education, you name it, and we’re rated around 48th or 50th from a business climate and standpoint in California,” said founder Robert Paul Preston. > > The state of New California would incorporate most of the state’s rural counties, leaving the urban coastal counties to the current state of California. > > “There’s something wrong when you have a rural county such as this one, and you go down to Orange County which is mostly urban, and it has the same set of problems, and it happens because of how the state is being governed and taxed,” Preston said. > > But unlike other separation movements in the past the state of New California wants to do things by the book, citing Article 4, Section 3 of the US Constitution and working with the state legislature to get it done, similar to the way West Virginia was formed. Source: [New California Declares Independence From Rest Of State - CBS Sacramento](http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/01/15/new-california-declares-independence-from-rest-of-state/) It’s also unlikely to happen, but perhaps a little less unlikely. Unlike the Russian-supported secession movement, it’s apparently home-grown. It would most likely give Republicans 2 more Senate seats, and would probably decrease the electoral votes of Old California. California Classic would lose most of its water, and would have to negotiate for it with New California. But there’s no incentive for the progressive-dominated state legislature to support it, so Congress wouldn’t get involved. And taxes would probably rise in New Cali. It’s another way to look at the issue, though. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/227 "2018-01-17T06:59:13Z")
Walt Whitman, 1864 [78. Attitude of Foreign Governments During the War - Collection at Bartleby.com](http://www.bartleby.com/229/1078.html) > [@](#): > > The happening to our America, abroad as well as at home, these years, is indeed most strange. The democratic republic has paid her to-day the terrible and resplendent compliment of the united wish of all the nations of the world that her union should be broken, her future cut off, and that she should be compell’d to descend to the level of kingdoms and empires ordinarily great. > > There is certainly not one government in Europe but is now watching the war in this country, with the ardent prayer that the United States may be effectually split, crippled, and dismember’d by it. There is not one but would help toward that dismemberment, if it dared… > > We are all too prone to wander from ourselves, to affect Europe, and watch her frowns and smiles. We need this hot lesson of general hatred, and henceforth must never forget it. Never again will we trust the moral sense nor abstract friendliness of a single government of the old world. Never. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/228 "2018-01-17T11:56:51Z")
Five miscellaneous comments: **Arizona Mike** — your post has several errors, so I’ll just mention a genuine rarity: \*two errors in one word! \* > [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Have you actually lived in a Red state? You may be surprised to learn that they are not heterogenous. You misspelled the word I’ve underlined. And I don’t think it means what you think it does. > [@E-DUB](#): > > The thing about gerrymandering is that it has become such a science that the Republicans, in order to maximize their seats have cut the margin of victory in many districts down to the point where it could be overwhelmed by a “wave election”, such as 2018 might be. Good point. I’ve got my fingers crossed. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Remind us again where you would draw the lines? 😉 [tongue _halfway_ in cheek] Asked and answered in a previous thread. The Pacific states (ex-Alaska), New England, New York City, possibly a corridor through New Jersey down to D.C., and any other states that want to join. We’d also grab southern Nevada right away, to get some nuclear weapons and control of the Colorado River. The Rational States of America, or whatever we’d call ourselves, would be #3 in the world by GDP, ahead of Japan. Trumpia (or Flyoverland, whatever the runt names itself) would initially remain as #1 but would fall fast. Civil War? Sure! But in our dismal scenario, how else can catharsis be achieved? > [@BlueMerle](#): > > I won’t happen again. I hope this (braggadocio?) was just a typo. ---
**Author:** ![FavreCo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a698b9/32.png) [@FavreCo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FavreCo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/229 "2018-01-18T01:18:11Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > I sincerely believe that Civil War II is coming. I’m putting the odds of bloodshed before January 20, 2020, at 90%. In some ways the first “shots,” so to speak, have already been fired, in Charlottesville in August. > > It’s not going to be Coastal vs. Flyover States. It’s going to be urban vs. rural, which will make for a much more complicated and much messier kerfuffle. Also, there aren’t two opposing forces here, like in Civil War I - more like thousands. Every little Western militia, urban gang, hate group, what-have-you that is armed and pissed off is going to get it on it. Should be entertaining watching people fight and at the same time get on the smartphone and do some texting. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/230 "2018-01-18T04:23:56Z")
> [@FavreCo](#): > > Should be entertaining watching people fight and at the same time get on the smartphone and do some texting. And posting every atrocity and lynching on Twitter and YouTube. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=11)