# It may be time for Americans to consider splitting up the UNITED States of America **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994 "2018-01-06T19:14:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/41 "2018-01-07T02:55:44Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > There were petitions in at least 19 states to do exactly that in 2012. Texas alone had 64,000. I assume most of the signatories were Republicans, and that many of them were not being frivolous. [Cite](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/14/news/la-pn-white-house-secession-50-states-20121114): > [@LA Times](#): > > Currently, six secession petitions have reached that threshold [ed: the 25,000 threshold for receiving an official White House response] – from Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia and Texas. The petition from Texas has more than 100,000 signatures, although according to another petition, it seems that 5,000 people in Austin would like to be granted independence from the state of Texas while remaining part of the United States. Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, and Texas. **ArizonaMike** , can you think of anything those states might have in common? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/42 "2018-01-07T03:14:03Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Given how the Russians have been financing and running phony state secession orgs this last year, I have to suspect anyone who pushes this idea of carrying a Russian agenda. > > After all, what better way to destroy America as the #1 power in the world than to give aid and succor to the forces of disintegration and separation? Letting gay people get married. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/43 "2018-01-07T03:17:21Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Admitting Canada as 11 states rather than 1 wouldn’t be gerrymandering by definition. > > It (assuming it was to be done) would also make much more sense that admitting it as one state. Ontario with a population 13 million would be the 5th largest state. Quebec would be 13th largest. Only two of the 11 provinces would be smaller than Wyoming. It makes no sense at all for Canada to join the US. What makes you think we’d want your problems? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/44 "2018-01-07T04:23:06Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > I sincerely believe that Civil War II is coming. I’m putting the odds of bloodshed before January 20, 2020, at 90%. In some ways the first “shots,” so to speak, have already been fired, in Charlottesville in August. You think Charlottesville was the first shot but not Steve Scalise getting, you know, actually shot two months before that? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/45 "2018-01-07T04:23:47Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Not if you do it right. Admit Canada as 11 new states. That’s 22 new Senators and what, 11 new Representatives? We’re not going to annex Canada. (We’re also [not going to break up the Union on “red state/blue state” lines](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20689907#post20689907), either.) If we _did_ annex Canada (or any part of it), it would certainly be on the lines of “[province](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_and_territories_of_Canada)=state”, so we’d presumably end up with as many as 10 new states (although Quebec might decide they don’t want to be even more outnumbered by Anglophones), so that’s 20 new Senators (or 18 if Quebec decides not to play). Going by population, that would be one new U.S. Representative each for the smaller new states like New Brunswick or Newfoundland and Labrador. (Prince Edward Island would be demographically kind of problematic, as its population is considerably smaller than even Wyoming; but per the Constitution every state gets a minimum of one Congressman. All of the Canadian territories put together have even fewer people than PEI.) But we’d be talking about more like sixteen Representatives for Ontario (and maybe ten for Quebec, assuming they decided to join up–maybe we could go ahead and admit Puerto Rico as a state while we’re at it, so the Quebecois wouldn’t feel quite so beleaguered by us uncultured English-speaking monoglots). British Columbia and Alberta would get five or six apiece. We might also want to think about increasing the number of Congressmen from 435; that number isn’t set in stone (or even specified in the Constitution). Although, once again: We’re not going to annex Canada. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/46 "2018-01-07T04:31:16Z")
Who said “annex?” I was thinking more along the lines of bloody conquest and brutal subjugation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/47 "2018-01-07T05:27:03Z")
I feel this is what would happen. The United States would split into two countries, Conservative America and Progressive America. Without Progressive America to prop it up, Conservative America would collapse. Normally, I’d say they could live with the consequences of their own policies. But realistically they would refuse to do so. Conservative America would deny its problems were self-inflicted. They’d say everything was somehow Progressive America’s fault and then declare war on us. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/48 "2018-01-07T05:47:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I feel this is what would happen. The United States would split into two countries, Conservative America and Progressive America. Without Progressive America to prop it up, Conservative America would collapse. Normally, I’d say they could live with the consequences of their own policies. But realistically they would refuse to do so. Conservative America would deny its problems were self-inflicted. They’d say everything was somehow Progressive America’s fault and then declare war on us. Emphasis added. The war would start there. As I already noted, there is no way to split America into “Conservative” and “Progressive” America. ---
**Author:** ![Disheavel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Disheavel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disheavel)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/49 "2018-01-07T06:09:19Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > The rich did their best to influence the last election on behalf of Hillary Clinton, whose donations far outstripped the campaign chest of Trump. Hillary had the benefit of the rich people in Hollywood, the music industry, the media, Big Pharma, the Trial Lawyers, and numerous other industries. She failed nonetheless. Your grasp of wealth is not strong. This is puny money. I absolutely agree that it is very public money, but the power behind it is very weak (other than maybe lawyers). but note that you put Trial Lawyers??? They are in the bottom third of lawyers for prestige and wealth. In a slightly interesting anecdote, we know all about the Apple Google Microsoft Amazon, but how many entrepreneurs became billionaires or even 8-9 digit millionaires through pharma? Name them! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/50 "2018-01-07T07:38:06Z")
Well, in these conversations (liberal money, blah blah), the Republicans seem to conveniently forget their own passel of billionaire patrons. Murdoch, the Mercers, the Koch Bros, Sheldon Adelson. Those people control Fox News, Breitbart and all of the other right wing media. They control the entire right wing message. Seems they don’t really have any basis to complain about liberal billionaires and liberal media. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/51 "2018-01-07T07:42:36Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, in these conversations (liberal money, blah blah), the Republicans seem to conveniently forget their own passel of billionaire patrons. Murdoch, the Mercers, the Koch Bros, Sheldon Adelson. > > Those people control Fox News, Breitbart and all of the other right wing media. They control the entire right wing message. > > Seems they don’t really have any basis to complain about liberal billionaires and liberal media. But… but… but… _SOROS!_ ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/52 "2018-01-07T15:08:04Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > The apparent inability of large swathes of Portlandians to pump their own gas does not speak well for their ability to mount a secession movement. Thanks for my best laugh of the day! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/53 "2018-01-07T15:11:01Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > But… but… but… _SOROS!_ The Koch Brothers are kind of an anomaly, in that they suggested at least the tepid possibility of support for Hillary Clinton, fight the overcriminalization of many offenses (such as marijuana possession), fund programs providing legal support to imprisoned black Americans, and so forth. They’re really more libertarian (with the exception of the contributions to Hillary) than conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/54 "2018-01-07T15:15:35Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, in these conversations (liberal money, blah blah), the Republicans seem to conveniently forget their own passel of billionaire patrons. Murdoch, the Mercers, the Koch Bros, Sheldon Adelson. > > Those people control Fox News, Breitbart and all of the other right wing media. They control the entire right wing message. > > Seems they don’t really have any basis to complain about liberal billionaires and liberal media. Not at all. But it’s naive to suggest that only Republicans are backed by millionaires. Both parties have large corporate sposnors or they wouldn’t survive. There’s no doubt that Hillary received far larger corporate contributions than President Trump did for their campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/55 "2018-01-07T15:18:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Cite](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/14/news/la-pn-white-house-secession-50-states-20121114): > > Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, and Texas. **ArizonaMike** , can you think of anything those states might have in common? I can get more signatures than those tiny percentages on a petition to make Pluto a planet again, LHD. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/56 "2018-01-07T15:45:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. The war would start there. As I already noted, there is no way to split America into “Conservative” and “Progressive” America. I agree it’s not going to happen in the real world. My post was going along with the premise of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/57 "2018-01-07T16:12:16Z")
> [@Disheavel](#): > > Your grasp of wealth is not strong. This is puny money. I absolutely agree that it is very public money, but the power behind it is very weak (other than maybe lawyers). but note that you put Trial Lawyers??? They are in the bottom third of lawyers for prestige and wealth. > > In a slightly interesting anecdote, we know all about the Apple Google Microsoft Amazon, but how many entrepreneurs became billionaires or even 8-9 digit millionaires through pharma? Name them! My grasp of wealth is not bad, thanks. The largest single contributor to Hillary’s campaign was the Hedge Fund corporation Paloma Partners, at $21,613,800.00 The second largest was Pritzker Group, a venture capital group, at $16,626,207.00 The third largest was Renaissance Technologies, another Hedge Fund corporation, at $16,543,000.00. The fourth largest was Saban Capital, an equity investment group, at $12,283,411.00. The fifth largest was Newsweb Corporation, a media conglomerate, at $11,016,642.00 George Soros comes in sixth place at a measly $10,556,793.00. Asana, a software corporation, came in 7th at $6,005,556.00 Other multi-billion dollar contributors include Slim-Fast, hedge-fund corporation Lone Pine Capital, the Carpenters and Joiners Union, the Laborer’s Union, and big pharma corp D.E. Shaw Research (whose C.E.O. David E. Shaw would be an answer to your last question). Lawyers’ PACs and corporations contributed 36.4 million to Hillary, but only $942,000 tp Trump. Even Bernie Sanders got 2 million from Lawyer’s PACs. Hillary’s money does not include foreign contributions laundered through the Clinton Foundation, which provided much of the infrastructure for her campaign. Trump won the presidency despite having raised less than any major party presidential nominee since John McCain in 2008, the last candidate to accept federal funds to pay for his general election contest. Hillary raised $1,191 million, Trump (including his own funds) raised $646.8 million. By industry, Hillary’s top contributors were: 1 Securities & Investment $87,965,257 2 Retired $68,781,028 3 Lawyers/Law Firms $41,599,595 4 Education $24,178,280 5 TV/Movies/Music $23,989,337 6 Democratic/Liberal $22,007,666 7 Non-Profit Institutions $19,042,412 8 Women’s Issues $18,351,516 9 Building Trade Unions $17,376,736 10 Printing & Publishing $17,269,337 11 Real Estate $15,552,405 12 Business Services $13,925,898 13 Electronics Mfg & Equip $12,757,075 14 Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $12,434,783 15 Health Professionals $11,572,302 16 Civil Servants/Public Officials $10,425,380 17 Internet $6,346,767 18 Human Rights $5,908,943 19 Misc Finance $5,682,065 20 Public Sector Unions $5,577,644 Compare that to the more modest funds raised by Trump: Rank Industry Total 1 Retired $37,412,869 2 Securities & Investment $20,842,631 3 Republican/Conservative $13,744,954 4 Real Estate $11,162,279 5 TV/Movies/Music $5,530,675 6 Misc Business $4,221,288 7 Health Professionals $3,420,902 8 Non-Profit Institutions $2,353,258 9 Recreation/Live Entertainment $2,106,019 10 Poultry & Eggs $2,030,087 11 Savings & Loans $2,013,152 12 Lawyers/Law Firms $1,827,395 13 Misc Finance $1,652,776 14 General Contractors $1,646,134 15 Business Services $1,419,445 16 Electronics Mfg & Equip $1,283,221 17 Crop Production & Basic Processing $1,213,564 18 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $1,204,461 19 Defense Aerospace $1,171,049 20 Casinos/Gambling $1,085,259 It is inescapable that Hillary was the preferred candidate of the wealthy and big business. She was the plutocrat’s plutocrat. Had she spent less time being a Clinton and grabbing every dollar she could, regardless of its source, and instead actually campaigned with the energy of Trump, she might have actually won. Talking to people, clearly enunciating your campaign goals (instead of relying on an Obama me-toosim), and actually visiting key states might have helped her. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/58 "2018-01-07T16:17:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree it’s not going to happen in the real world. My post was going along with the premise of the thread. Ah, OK. In that case, if you get to wave a magic wand and skip over the first Civil War, I’ll wave the same wand and skip the 2nd one! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/59 "2018-01-07T16:18:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You think Charlottesville was the first shot but not Steve Scalise getting, you know, actually shot two months before that? 😕 I had forgotten about Steve, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/60 "2018-01-07T16:22:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree it’s not going to happen in the real world. My post was going along with the premise of the thread. Agreed. In the real world, any Blue state has counties that are solidly red which would resist any illegal attempt to secede. The results of attempts by Democratic local party officials to stuff the ballot box on a secession referendum at the county level would probably wind up looking like the Battle of Athens, Georgia ([Battle of Athens (1946) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946))) Any real 2nd civil war in America would look a lot less like the 1st American Civil War and more like the Spanish Civil War - battles throughout the countryside and brutal shoot-outs, bombings, and executions by both sides. Antifa vs, militias, urban violence, and while America was pre-occupied, all manner of international mischief - North Korea would invade South Korea, Russia would reannex the Ukraine and the Baltic States, China would seize Taiwan, another invasion of Israel. It wouldn’t be pretty and no sane person who loves their country and world peace would support such lunacy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=4)