# It may be time for Americans to consider splitting up the UNITED States of America **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994 "2018-01-06T19:14:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/81 "2018-01-08T16:19:58Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Like Senator Byrd? Or the Democrats who, through their social policies, devastated the black community and black families? Pull the other one. OMG playing the Byrd card? Seriously? He renounced the KKK decades ago. Which party is it that is trying its hardest to disenfranchise minority voters? Which president talked about welfare queens and held his first campaign stop in Philadelphia, MS? ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/82 "2018-01-08T16:21:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Actually I was referring to ArizonaMike’s statement that that China, Vietnam, and North Korea allow it up to 20 _months,_ which is of course quite silly as it would be near the child’s first birthday. Barring ArizonaMike’s typo (or maybe not?), I think it’s fair to say that 12 weeks is about par for legal abortion in the west. You would be wrong. Only 7 countries out of the 59 that permit abortion in demand allow elective abortion after 20 weeks. Only Netherlands in Europe does. The others are the United States, Canada, China, North Korea, Singapore, and Vietnam. Even quite a few abortion rights activists in Europe consider that pretty barbaric. The Washington Post didn’t initially believe this was true, either, but their fact-checker finally agreed it was: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/09/is-the-united-states-one-of-seven-countries-that-allow-elective-abortions-after-20-weeks-of-pregnancy/?utm\_term=.93e03f2e28cf](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/09/is-the-united-states-one-of-seven-countries-that-allow-elective-abortions-after-20-weeks-of-pregnancy/?utm_term=.93e03f2e28cf) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/83 "2018-01-08T16:25:29Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > You would be wrong. Only 7 countries out of the 59 that permit abortion in demand allow elective abortion after 20 weeks. Only Netherlands in Europe does. > > The others are the United States, Canada, China, North Korea, Singapore, and Vietnam. > > Even quite a few abortion rights activists in Europe consider that pretty barbaric. > > The Washington Post didn’t initially believe this was true, either, but their fact-checker finally agreed it was: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/09/is-the-united-states-one-of-seven-countries-that-allow-elective-abortions-after-20-weeks-of-pregnancy/?utm\_term=.93e03f2e28cf](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/09/is-the-united-states-one-of-seven-countries-that-allow-elective-abortions-after-20-weeks-of-pregnancy/?utm_term=.93e03f2e28cf) You’d have a point if I said that 20 weeks is the norm when in fact I said that 12 weeks is. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/84 "2018-01-08T16:30:20Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Actually I was referring to ArizonaMike’s statement that that China, Vietnam, and North Korea allow it up to 20 _months,_ which is of course quite silly as it would be near the child’s first birthday. Barring ArizonaMike’s typo (or maybe not?), I think it’s fair to say that 12 weeks is about par for legal abortion in the west. And although 20 “months” was a typo on my part, infanticide is legal in North Korea, as long as it is done by the government, at least. When NK citizens fleeing to China are arrested and returned to N. Korea, any children from Chinese parents are reported to be killed by burial (David Hawk (2012). The Hidden Gulag Second Edition The Lives and Voices of “Those Who are Sent to the Mountains” (PDF) (Second ed.). Committee for Human Rights in North Korea. pp. 111–155. ISBN 0615623670. Retrieved June 16, 2012.) In Canada, it has been argued that the laws against infanticide should be abolished altogether: [https://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1142&context=uwojls](https://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1142&context=uwojls) Although the legal status is unclear, infanticide due to the One Child Policy and sex-selection is not uncommon. [China grapples with legacy of its ‘missing girls’](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5953508#.WlOcZ7aZNo4) Although it’s on the fringe, there are advocates for the decriminalization of infanticide within the U.S. and the Netherlands as well. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/85 "2018-01-08T16:39:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > OMG playing the Byrd card? Seriously? He renounced the KKK decades ago. Which party is it that is trying its hardest to disenfranchise minority voters? Which president talked about welfare queens and held his first campaign stop in Philadelphia, MS? So your argument is that your party used to be openly racist, but isn’t anymore? How many Republican politicians switched sides to be Democrats because they opposed racism? How many Democrat politicians switched to become Republican because they wanted to be racists? Did Byrd? Who created the Philadelphia Plan that was the blueprint for affirmative action? Who wrote the Civil Rights Act of 1968? On the other hand, who voted against every major civil rights bill in U.S. history? If the Democratic Party wasn’t such a wolf whistle for those who want to keep black people poor and in their place, why didn’t you just change your name at the start of the civil rights movement? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/86 "2018-01-08T16:48:04Z")
I think your post lacks merit but I don’t think the other posters want to see the Bob and Mike Show. I’ll step back and see if we can get back to secession or breakup into Red States of America and Blue States of America. If you want to start a thread on the history of race in US politics I’ll be happy to join in. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/87 "2018-01-08T16:54:05Z")
Seriously, if the Ku Klux Klan had decided it would make an attempt to recruit and get votes from black Americans in a desire to (to paraphrase LBJ “Keep those N\*\*\*\*\*s voting KKK for the next 200 years”, would you still want to be a part of it? The Democratic majority in the Supreme Court held 7 to 2 (Republicans, that is) that black people weren’t fully human. The Democrats started a civil war to keep blacks slaves, after the Republican party began as a movement to prevent the expansion of slavery and to end it. After the war was won, a democrat assassinated Lincoln over the issue. Lincoln’s VP, a Democrat, fought like hell to prevent the expansion of civil liberties to black people. The Democrats started the KKK as their militant enforcement wing. You couldn’t get elected as a Democrat in my home town if you weren’t a Klansman in the 1920s. Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, when he wasn’t getting us in wars where we had no place, fought to re-segregate the workforce. They supported poll taxes, fought every civil rights act, and after LBJ decided to try to buy black votes, supported welfare laws that destroyed black families and abortion laws that kill as many black babies as are born. Why would Democrats even WANT to maintain the name of a party that had done all those things? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/88 "2018-01-08T17:02:19Z")
I support economic secession for blue state America: since the redder the state, the more likely it is to be dependent on federal dollars, I propose that blue states elect Democrats at the federal level who will go along with every spending cut the GOP proposes. At the state and municipal level, blue states would raise taxes to offset the damage being done. Since blue states carry red states financially, the state budgets for red America would collapse and they soon wouldn’t even be able to provide the most basic services. Once the rest of red America starts to suffer the way Kansas is now, with potholed streets and declining life expectancy we’ll be ready to work with them to develop more realistic financial and social policies. If blue America is paying the bills, we should get more of a say in how red America spends our dollars. In reality, we’ll get the secession you see now, the farther behind red America slides, the more it blames liberal elites, education and NFL players kneeling for their problems. The redder the state, the more drug use, the more children growing up without parents and the less prepared their students are for the outside world. They keep choosing politicians and policies that are disastrous for their well being and they keep blaming liberals when they fall on their face. In the mean time, this low level civil war will continue, an abortion clinic bombing here, a congressperson shot there and every once in a while, some lunatic will blow up a federal office building somewhere. What’s changed is that blue America is tired of being called traitors while we foot the bills. There really is a change in how committed the two America’s are to one another and given that red America takes more then it gives, it would behoove it to shut up more. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/89 "2018-01-08T17:18:06Z")
It’s nice to see that the “donor state” nonsense has made an appearance in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/90 "2018-01-08T17:22:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s nice to see that the “donor state” nonsense has made an appearance in this thread. [Those pesky liberals at Business Insider summarize as follows:](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-states-the-most-and-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government-2015-7) > [@](#): > > Red states vs. blue states > > Interestingly enough, red states, which tend to advocate for a lesser influence by the federal government, are much more dependent on the federal government than blue states. Blue states combined to form an average ranking of 18.3 (with 1 being most dependent and 50 being least dependent), while red states combined to rank 33.2 overall. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/91 "2018-01-08T18:15:58Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Seriously, if the Ku Klux Klan had decided it would make an attempt to recruit and get votes from black Americans in a desire to (to paraphrase LBJ “Keep those N\*\*\*\*\*s voting KKK for the next 200 years”, would you still want to be a part of it? > > The Democratic majority in the Supreme Court held 7 to 2 (Republicans, that is) that black people weren’t fully human. The Democrats started a civil war to keep blacks slaves, after the Republican party began as a movement to prevent the expansion of slavery and to end it. After the war was won, a democrat assassinated Lincoln over the issue. Lincoln’s VP, a Democrat, fought like hell to prevent the expansion of civil liberties to black people. The Democrats started the KKK as their militant enforcement wing. You couldn’t get elected as a Democrat in my home town if you weren’t a Klansman in the 1920s. Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, when he wasn’t getting us in wars where we had no place, fought to re-segregate the workforce. They supported poll taxes, fought every civil rights act, and after LBJ decided to try to buy black votes, supported welfare laws that destroyed black families and abortion laws that kill as many black babies as are born. > > Why would Democrats even WANT to maintain the name of a party that had done all those things? Do you realize how foolish it is to quote policies of either party from over 150 years ago? Both parties have practical swapped their planks since then. Argue current policies only, for heaven’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/92 "2018-01-08T18:26:44Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Thanks for my best laugh of the day! 🙂 Except for the fact that the reason they don’t (actually, didn’t, they can now) pump their own gas has nothing whatsoever to do with their supposed inability. It’s a stupid joke without a point. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/93 "2018-01-08T18:27:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [Those pesky liberals at Business Insider summarize as follows:](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-states-the-most-and-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government-2015-7) WalletHub, the source for your BI article, used this metric for their “State Government’s Dependency” statistic: > [@](#): > > Federal Funding as a Share of State Revenue ([source](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/#methodology)) Can you identify any potential issues with that metric? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/94 "2018-01-08T18:40:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s nice to see that the “donor state” nonsense has made an appearance in this thread. I’m tired of being called a traitor by people whose lifestyle I subsidize. When ever we take our eyes off them for a minute, they invade Iraq, destabilize the Middle East, or trade the country away to the first bigoted conman who offers them some magic beans. Since the Clinton years we’ve been hearing them call blue state America libtards while we have been carrying them. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/95 "2018-01-08T18:42:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > WalletHub, the source for your BI article, used this metric for their “State Government’s Dependency” statistic: > > ([source](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/#methodology)) > > Can you identify any potential issues with that metric? The only problem I see is that you didn’t completely represent what they’re doing: > [@](#): > > The website considered each state based on four metrics: its citizens return on taxes paid to the federal government, the percentage of state revenue from federal funding, the number of federal employees per 1000 residents, and the number of civilian non-defense federal employees per 1000 residents. If I thought for a while I might think of other measures, but this seems about right to me. The bottom line is that red states are much more likely to be leeches than blue states are. Take away the blue states and red states would be lost like babes in the woods. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/96 "2018-01-08T18:46:55Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I’m tired of being called a traitor by people whose lifestyle I subsidize. … I doubt anyone cares what you’re tired of being called. Do you think 1%ers are sick of being called names, in spite of carrying the rest of us? Does anyone care? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/97 "2018-01-08T18:50:01Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > So your argument is that your party used to be openly racist, but isn’t anymore? This is not an argument that is going to get you anywhere with intelligent people. It is an Alt-right attempt to discredit their opposition. Is that who you are? ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/98 "2018-01-08T20:27:34Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > This is not an argument that is going to get you anywhere with intelligent people. It is an Alt-right attempt to discredit their opposition. Is that who you are? No, many alt-Right people are as racist as many Democrats. Is that who you are? Again, given the openly racist origin of the Democratic Party, why would you or anyone else want to align with them, regardless of their current claimed stance? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/99 "2018-01-08T20:30:21Z")
Tell us what you know of the Southern Strategy, please. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/100 "2018-01-08T21:16:53Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > No, many alt-Right people are as racist as many Democrats. Is that who you are? Ok, that is an opinion, not fact. Not even remotely correct, but it is the tune of the alt-right, to declare that everyone else, especially the democrats, are the racists. > [@](#): > > Again, given the openly racist origin of the Democratic Party, why would you or anyone else want to align with them, regardless of their current claimed stance? Again, you’re taking something from over 150 years ago and declaring that it must be true today, when the opposite is true. Alt-Right “facts” that are just propaganda lies following the same right wing / Soviet “accuse the other side of doing what we’re doing” bullshit. I have no interest in debating points with a philosophy based on lies, propaganda and hate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=6)