# It may be time for Americans to consider splitting up the UNITED States of America **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994 "2018-01-06T19:14:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/161 "2018-01-09T21:15:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why do you keep wanting a war? Is that the only way that you can see to solve any differences of opinion, violence? > > I see other ways of resolving our differences, but as long as it is only the left that sees non-violent ways of doing so, then violence may end up being in the cards. If the right keeps making these threats like yours that if they don’t get their way, they will start a civil war, well,that’s not going to go well for anyone, left or right. It is only in your fantasies that your violent partisan allies manage to perform their coup with little or no casualties, the real world is a bit trickier. > > Do you know where wealth is generated? It is generated in cities. you know where productivity is produced? In cities. If the far right decides to try to perform a coup by taking out the cities, where do you think that is really going to leave them? > > OTOH, if the left were to just stop propping up the horribly inefficient and non viable business that is the family farm, a large portion of the right would go bankrupt and have to sell their land to more efficient corporations. The people in the city wouldn’t notice a thing. > > Every bit of life and lifestyle of the ruralite is subsidized by the wealth and productivity of the urban centers. Without them, the rural areas would be barely above subsistence farming trying to scrape a living out of the dirt. > > You don’t have to be grateful for what urban america does to support rural america, but you do need to realize that any harm to cities is going to hurt rural america far far more. Ultimately, pretty much anything a city produces is going to rely on things that were pulled out of the earth or grown out of the earth by the sort of people you ask to help you when your Tesla slides off the road on a tour of wine country. They can provide for most of their needs, most people in the cities (i.e., the ones that would support this proposal) would fall apart in a couple of hours when their basic needs for water from the tap, electricity from the outlet, and food from the shelves at the store disappeared. I’ve been in cities when the food was no longer being delivered. It wasn’t pretty. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/162 "2018-01-09T21:23:34Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > I don’t think you have been following the various legal arguments on this issue. Those who want to decriminalize infanticide are arguing that women who kill their own babies at birth are acting out of diminished capacity and should no more be held to trial than a woman who got an abortion. Read your cite more closely. You don’t understand what it says. Between that and you mistaking someone’s comment about Trump as a comment about you, I think you’d be well advised to slow down a little and read a bit more closely. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/163 "2018-01-09T21:23:53Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Ultimately, pretty much anything a city produces is going to rely on things that were pulled out of the earth or grown out of the earth by the sort of people you ask to help you when your Tesla slides off the road on a tour of wine country. They can provide for most of their needs, most people in the cities (i.e., the ones that would support this proposal) would fall apart in a couple of hours when their basic needs for water from the tap, electricity from the outlet, and food from the shelves at the store disappeared. I’ve been in cities when the food was no longer being delivered. It wasn’t pretty. Right - the cities would be unwise to carpetbomb all the farms and the farmers would unwise to carpetbomb all the cities. There’s a whole lot of stupid in the idea that you can cut a country up based on economic function - that would be like a group dividing up by sending all the limbs down one road and all the torsos down the other. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/164 "2018-01-09T21:25:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Read your cite more closely. You don’t understand what it says. > > Between that and you mistaking someone’s comment about Trump as a comment about you, I think you’d be well advised to slow down a little and read a bit more closely. I read it very well, thanks. You need to read the other sources on this issue if you want to venture an informed opinion. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/165 "2018-01-09T21:37:39Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Ultimately, pretty much anything a city produces is going to rely on things that were pulled out of the earth or grown out of the earth by the sort of people you ask to help you when your Tesla slides off the road on a tour of wine country. They can provide for most of their needs, most people in the cities (i.e., the ones that would support this proposal) would fall apart in a couple of hours when their basic needs for water from the tap, electricity from the outlet, and food from the shelves at the store disappeared. I’ve been in cities when the food was no longer being delivered. It wasn’t pretty. No, things in the city rely on things that are pulled out of the earth or the ground, but they do not rely on the people who live in the rural areas to do so. There are plenty of corporations that would be happy to buy your farm and run it more efficiently than you do. It is amusing that you think that mining operations actually need rural people to work in them. They only use those people because they are close by and work for cheap. The vast majority of jobs that are needed in mining now are high tech jobs, jobs that require at least some level of education, which is something that those in rural areas seem to refuse to accept that they need. If the companies cannot get the few percent of their workforce that is just unskilled grunt labor from the local rural population, they will simply pay a bit more to get better qualified people to come out from the cities. You say that your rural people’s can provide for most of their needs, then why are rural areas all full of poverty and opioid use, and begging the federal govt to come in and help with either or both epidemics? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/166 "2018-01-09T21:43:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The position presented is that armed civilians would be able to successfully prevent the actions of a theorized freewheeling government that has already clearly demonstrated the will to burn massive numbers of bridges to get what it wants. > > I assumed that by specifying that _armed_ citizens were doing this, the idea was that these gun-toters would be out there playing action hero, using their guns and super-not-dying skills to defeat the evil liberal government and its evil liberal armed police forces in sustained combat as per the standard conservative fantasy/IRA sales pitch. If the idea was instead that the armed citizens would sell those guns to raise money for peaceful lobbying efforts, then I stand corrected. I think it’s cute that you think that police / armed forces are liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/167 "2018-01-09T21:54:30Z")
\*\*Moderating \*\* > [@begbert2](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone so efficiently discredit themselves and annihilate their own argumentative position than **Arizona Mike** ’s continued assertions that the Democrats of the civil war era have anything **at all** to do with the modern democratic party. I have a difficult time believing that any intelligent and sane person of _either_ political party would accept that as valid or persuasive argument. > > It’s shit like this that makes it hard for me to remember that being of the conservative bent doesn’t automatically invalidate you from intelligent discussion. > [@Procrustus](#): > > Maybe this supports the premise of the OP, but I refuse to believe _anyone_ can believe what you just wrote. If it’s true, I weep for my country. This thread hasn’t been civil since the beginning, but it is approaching a level of invective unacceptable for IMHO. These comments are skirting the line of personal insults. Accusing another poster of lying is against the rules of IMHO. This is the second time I’ve had to moderate this thread. Further violations may result in warnings and/or closing the thread. It’s time to knock it _down_ a notch. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No you didn’t. President Obama is your nazi-lover’s superior in all ways. > [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Calling another poster a “nazi-lover” is a violation of TOS: > > "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that you know or should know is false and/or **defamatory** ,\*\* inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful\*\*, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, or in violation of U.S. law. > > I expect a retraction. The TOS has never been interpreted to include people who are not posters. President Trump is not a poster here, ergo there are no rules against insulting him or any other politician. In the future, please report the post rather than further derailing the thread with Jr. Modding. If you have any questions about the rules of this message board, please start a thread in ATMB or PM a moderator. As a **General Reminder** , this is the subject of the thread: > [@](#): > > I can’t help but notice that the more progressive states are all on the coasts. Wouldn’t it be favourable to break up the country keeping the coastal states except for south east ? Certainly would lower the temperature of politics in both regions, No warnings issued. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/168 "2018-01-09T21:55:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Really, do you think that Utah could manage the lands better on the state’s budget? Yes, but more importantly, I think that your claim (“The reason that this land is not turned over to the states is because the states don’t want it”) is false. You seem to have a habit of side-stepping or changing the subject when you make false claims. Here are some additional details to answer the question you asked above: > [@](#): > > [A recent study published by the Property and Environment Research Center (PERC)[1] exposes the glaring disparity between productivity on state and federal public lands throughout the West. The study reveals that **the federal government loses 27 cents for every dollar it spends on land management** , a loss to taxpayers of approximately $2 billion per year. **States, on the other hand, generate on average $14.51 for every dollar they spend managing public lands**. The study declares, “By nearly all accounts, our federal lands are in trouble, both in terms of fiscal performance and environmental stewardship” and concludes “states have clearly demonstrated their ability to generate greater returns from land management than the federal government.”](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/americanlandscouncil/pages/42/attachments/original/1439325292/GetTheFacts.pdf?1439325292) > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There may be some choice areas that the BLM has protected that are now worth taking for their value, but do you really want all 23 million acres that currently the federal government is taking care of for your state, or do you want to just pick and choose the choicey bits? > > If you had to choose, would you take all BLM land in Utah and make it the state’s responsibility, or would you leave BLM in charge of the vast tracts of land that is poorly suited for farming, grazing, or living on? Yes, I’d have Utah take control of all the BLM land in Utah if it were up to me. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Personally, as much as I see that _I_ benefit from BLM, I’d rather just save the billion dollars and let the states have their land. Utah would prefer that too. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/169 "2018-01-09T22:19:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, but more importantly, I think that your claim (“The reason that this land is not turned over to the states is because the states don’t want it”) is false. You seem to have a habit of side-stepping or changing the subject when you make false claims. No, I am trying to clarify. You misunderstand my claims (which may very well be my fault, I try to be clear, but I am only human), then I clarify, then you accuse me not only of making a false claim, but then side stepping. I am doing neither. > [@](#): > > Here are some additional details to answer the question you asked above: The main reason for that is because the states already have the valuable land. The Federal BLM administers over the land that isn’t as good or productive. Of course you are going to make more money on good land than on poor land, but picking out the choice bits and claiming that that makes you a better steward of the land is not really all that valid. Plus, the BLM leases out the land to ranchers and to mineral exploration companies at a much lower rate than private or state run lands do. I don’t know that I agree that they should continue that practice, but they do so as a benefit to those living in the state, so shutting down the practice of leasing out land for pennies on the dollar to ranchers in your state wouldn’t hurt me in the slightest, it would actually save me a bit of tax dollar, but would hurt the people in your state who take advantage of these deals in order to make their enterprises viable. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’d have Utah take control of all the BLM land in Utah if it were up to me. > > Utah would prefer that too. Ar there actually any polls of your people about this you can point to? Has your legislature attempted to rescind all of the BLM land management (not just the choice parts, remember)? Do your state and privately owned lands allow ranchers to graze their cattle for the prices that BLM charges? I do think that if people were fully aware of what taking on all the land inventory from BLM in their state would cost in terms of not only taxes, but economic disruption, they would have a different opinion on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/170 "2018-01-09T22:20:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s cute that you think that police / armed forces are liberal. It’s more that I don’t think they’re lying oathbreaking traitors. There are two possible scenarios for a state or collection of states seceding - either a military insurrection started by the state, or a legal secession instigated by the country (probably at the state’s behest). For a military insurrection to last more than twenty minutes, the state will have to have scrounged up an army somewhere prior to the insurrection starting. This army will either be poached from the military, poached from the populace, or (I suppose) borrowed or hired from an external force (think the french sending troops to aid). Now if they somehow got portions of the US army behind them, then that would be pretty damned astonishing - I don’t really consider that to be scenario worth considering. (And, so it seems, neither do you.) Alternatively some significant portion of the populace will rise up, presumably raiding military bases for equipment (and maybe also their conservative neighbors’ closets, if it’s a calexit rather than a texexit). Or France could send troops and/or weapons. Whatever approach they use, it _presupposes_ that the seceding government musters enough troops and equipment to hold off the (remaining) US army in sustained combat. Suffice to say, regardless of where the former state got their army, if it can stand against the US army it can turn resident couch potato gun owners into mincemeat. Honestly I’m not thinking it’s even slightly plausible that any single state or couple of states could muster such an army via _any_ method short of being aided by Klingons. At a minimum you’d have to slice the country right down the (geographical) middle somehow and have all the existing military on the rebel side turn against the US too. (Yeah right.) So let’s forget the idea of a military confederate-style insurrection. Which leaves us dancing in the fantasyland where some state successfully persuades the US government to let it leave. If this happened the US will promptly respond by taking its balls and going home. The existing military would _leave_. It wouldn’t matter if they were liberal or not; they’d be _gone_ - transferred out to areas the US still claims control over. Now, let’s talk about police. In theory the local police could all respond by promptly ignoring the mandate of the _united states federal government_ that California is too annoying and whiny to put up with and the remaining states would rather point and laugh as it tried to forge its way alone. But, in ignoring this mandate, what do they do? Attacking the local government wouldn’t make California a state anymore; it was already cut loose. In theory they could mount some kind of campaign against the federal government, the group that ejected their state from the union, but I’m not thinking that would work out really well for them either. Or they could just do their damn jobs. Both their state government and the federal government decided to try this cockamamie caltexexit experiment, but that doesn’t change the fact they have a city to take care of. A city that’s probably a little restless with the sudden government instability, and of course there are also going to be a bunch of gleeful psychotic gun owners trying to assassinate people left and right. And sure, maybe the cop agrees that their senator is a liberal idiot for getting them in this situation - but if they stand aside and let assassins run wild, or become one themselves, they’re not a patriot. They’re a criminal, a traitor, and a piece of shit. And I think most cops know that - I mean, if they didn’t, wouldn’t they be out murdering liberal politicians already? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/171 "2018-01-09T23:03:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Has your legislature attempted to rescind all of the BLM land management (not just the choice parts, remember)? … This is the only one I have a handy answer to. Yes. In 2012, the Utah State Legislature passed the “[Transfer of Public Land Act and Related Study](https://le.utah.gov/~2012/bills/hbillenr/hb0148.htm)”. It actually exempted the land that I believe you’d consider “the choice parts”: national parks, national monuments, the Golden Spike National Historic Site, wilderness areas, etc. It primarily applied to / asked for BLM and Forest Service land. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/172 "2018-01-09T23:10:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why do you keep wanting a war? Is that the only way that you can see to solve any differences of opinion, violence? > > I see other ways of resolving our differences, but as long as it is only the left that sees non-violent ways of doing so, then violence may end up being in the cards. If the right keeps making these threats like yours that if they don’t get their way, they will start a civil war, well,that’s not going to go well for anyone, left or right. It is only in your fantasies that your violent partisan allies manage to perform their coup with little or no casualties, the real world is a bit trickier. > > Do you know where wealth is generated? It is generated in cities. you know where productivity is produced? In cities. If the far right decides to try to perform a coup by taking out the cities, where do you think that is really going to leave them? > > OTOH, if the left were to just stop propping up the horribly inefficient and non viable business that is the family farm, a large portion of the right would go bankrupt and have to sell their land to more efficient corporations. The people in the city wouldn’t notice a thing. > > Every bit of life and lifestyle of the ruralite is subsidized by the wealth and productivity of the urban centers. Without them, the rural areas would be barely above subsistence farming trying to scrape a living out of the dirt. > > You don’t have to be grateful for what urban america does to support rural america, but you do need to realize that any harm to cities is going to hurt rural america far far more. Yes. War is preferable to splintering the nation. You are also making some errors with your urban/rural divide. One is that the urban area would be able to grow food, supply water, and produce electricity. Good luck,with that. Two you seem to think that urban areas are homogeneous left wing enclaves. That’s highly doubtful. And what is the average income and average net worth of (D) vs (R)? I guarantee it’s much closer than the silly blue state vs red state aggregate would suggest. Cities produce wealth when there is a surplus of labor with regards to agriculture and people can begin to specialize. Isolated urban enclaves won’t have the food in a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/173 "2018-01-09T23:12:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. War is preferable to splintering the nation. I’m curious how you define “splintering the nation”, particularly since you do not seem to be including “starting a civil war” in that definition. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/174 "2018-01-09T23:15:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. War is preferable to splintering the nation. > > You are also making some errors with your urban/rural divide. One is that the urban area would be able to grow food, supply water, and produce electricity. Good luck,with that. Two you seem to think that urban areas are homogeneous left wing enclaves. That’s highly doubtful. And what is the average income and average net worth of (D) vs (R)? I guarantee it’s much closer than the silly blue state vs red state aggregate would suggest. > > Cities produce wealth when there is a surplus of labor with regards to agriculture and people can begin to specialize. Isolated urban enclaves won’t have the food in a civil war. You are the one that keeps bringing up war. If we just cut agricultural subsidies, then it would not be long until all the rural people go bankrupt and lose their land. Then the land is all under the control of the corporations in the cities. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/175 "2018-01-10T00:00:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m curious how you define “splintering the nation”, particularly since you do not seem to be including “starting a civil war” in that definition. Because I’m not operating under the fantasy that what leads to a split would be peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/176 "2018-01-10T00:01:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are the one that keeps bringing up war. > > If we just cut agricultural subsidies, then it would not be long until all the rural people go bankrupt and lose their land. Then the land is all under the control of the corporations in the cities. When a nation is split you don’t just go across the border and take what you think you own. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/177 "2018-01-10T00:07:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because I’m not operating under the fantasy that what leads to a split would be peaceful. In addition to not satisfying my curiosity about how you define “splintering the nation”, particularly since you do not seem to be including “starting a civil war” in that definition, I’m not sure that’s even a complete sentence. Personally I’m operating on the assumption that there won’t even _be_ a split, in the sense of a state making any actual effort to secede. But if there is one, it will either be started by legal actions taking place in the federal government, or it will be started by the state(s) amassing an army that they consider equal to the US Military. And I very much don’t think that any state is dumb enough to think they can win a fight with the US military. So to make this very simple: if california/texas successfully lobbied the US government into passing legislation detaching it from the union, would you consider that sufficient reason to launch an unprovoked military attack against the departing state? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/178 "2018-01-10T00:21:14Z")
The problem is even if a state leaves the union, it’s still going to have the same tensions. The tensions are liberal vs. conservative, white vs. non-white, urban vs. rural, etc. These issues exist within almost every state. In the deep red states, the urban areas are blue and in the deep blue states the rural areas are red. It isn’t like the red areas of California or the Urban areas of Texas would be happy with secession. If secession truly happened, it’d have to be the urban areas leaving the rural areas. I don’t know how that would work. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/179 "2018-01-10T00:49:13Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Calling another poster a “nazi-lover” is a violation of TOS: > > "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that you know or should know is false and/or **defamatory** ,\*\* inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful\*\*, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, or in violation of U.S. law. > > I expect a retraction. Trump’s not a poster here, so expect disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994/180 "2018-01-10T00:59:11Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The problem is even if a state leaves the union, it’s still going to have the same tensions. The tensions are liberal vs. conservative, white vs. non-white, urban vs. rural, etc. These issues exist within almost every state. > > In the deep red states, the urban areas are blue and in the deep blue states the rural areas are red. It isn’t like the red areas of California or the Urban areas of Texas would be happy with secession. If the US broke into component states, or discrete blocks of states with similar political ideology, then there would be a significant pressure for liberals to flee from states that have suddenly banned abortion and black skin to ones that haven’t done so. In theory there would be similar pressure for conservatives to flee to the red states, but one gets the impression that conservatives might be less inclined to move for any of several reasons, so I’m not sure they would. If they didn’t, though, they would find themselves politically marginalized, and would probably recognize that it’s no longer okay to be openly MAGA unless they move to a MAGA state first, and so will make their own choice to either shut up or get out. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If secession truly happened, it’d have to be the urban areas leaving the rural areas. I don’t know how that would work. It wouldn’t work, for the simple fact that the urban areas aren’t connected and would be cut off. That and they lack resources. You can’t make a nation out of just the urban areas. Rural folk have a better basis for believing they could live without the cities, but if they did actually burn them down and slaughter all the city folk, they’d soon find they weren’t considered a first world country, and wouldn’t be able to afford first world amenities. The breakdown/removal of federal support systems would result in infrastructure decay and in many of them starving. But a percentage of them would be able to persist, which is more than we can say for stranded cities, so we have to give the preppers that much credit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-may-be-time-for-americans-to-consider-splitting-up-the-united-states-of-america/805994.md?page=10)