# It never gets old, does it? (Ascribing Motives by Political Association) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887 "2006-02-17T00:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/61 "2006-02-21T05:36:13Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Dude, the bottom line is that both parties have strengths and weaknesses, and neither of them are capable of solving any of the problems of this country by themselves. The partisan bullshit has gotten in the way of that, **mhendo** ’s disagreement notwithstanding. So we have a loud group of Republicans and a loud group of Democrats trying to shout the loudest, to the detriment of important stuff. Respectfully, I don’t think that’s the problem. The downsides in each party are not symmetrical. The problem is that fact-resistant ideologues have the upper hand in the Republican party. Moderates have been driven out and adults like Lugar and Bob Dole have been sidelined.[1] **This is less the case among Democrats** , since Bill Clinton outmaneuvered and blunted the lefties. Example: Schumer (D, NY) who really is a loudmouth does not dominate his party. Neoconservatives got us into this mess in Iraq without thinking through the endgame. They shouted down those who urged caution and staffed reconstruction with people who had no background in post-conflict situations. Thankfully, the neos are no longer in power; adults like Condileeza Rice are left to clean up the mess. Things are clearer on the budget front. I defy you to find a single conservative pundit who will speak openly about rescinding the Bush tax cuts. They won’t. At the same time, they don’t loudly voice the sorts of spending cuts that would be necessary to make the books balance. Admittedly some (not all) will say that deficits don’t matter, but they don’t flesh that argument out for the 2010+ period, when the numbers get _really_ ugly. Conclusion: the intellectual foundations of modern conservatism are bankrupt: faced with this situation modern conservatives typically substitute bluster. It’s a dodge. > [@](#): > > To put it another way, saying that Abu Ghraib gave the US military a black eye is legitimate. Saying that because of Abu Ghraib every member of the military is contemptible is not. And to take it even further, calling me dishonorable because of actions taken by others is inappropriate and irresponsible. I have to agree with you there. Let me summarize. The left has lots of pundits like Kevin Drum and Josh Marshall who endeavor to police the borders of liberal thought. That is, they will criticize the likes of Michael Moore (though admittedly, they will also note that entertainer’s better aspects). Unfortunately, modern conservatives lack a similar stream of thought. Unconstrained by empiricism, there is only feel-good ideology. To explain the preceding leads naturally to a discussion of motives. Which I won’t go into here: such discussion is necessarily speculative and tangential to my main point. [1] John McCain is a notable exception, as he has a decent shot at the Presidency. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/62 "2006-02-21T16:39:01Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > By and large no, following the moral lead of the contemptible **bluesman** the position was, “Oh yeah we knew they were lying (not that we’ll admit it if you ask) all along and just played you for fools.” “Cause for us, it’s all about the bloodshed, torture and rapacity.” You got a cite on that? ISTM that when you call a poster who’s not even in the thread “contemptible”, you should at least link to some of that poster’s alleged contemptibleness - especially when he’s not posted in ages, and his contemptibility may not be fresh in our minds. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/63 "2006-02-21T21:02:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You got a cite on that? > > ISTM that when you call a poster who’s not even in the thread “contemptible”, you should at least link to some of that poster’s alleged contemptibleness - especially when he’s not posted in ages, and his contemptibility may not be fresh in our minds. As I’ve upbraided **Shodan** for big accusations without evidence, it’s only fair I substantiate my own claims: [Hey bluesman, a question for you.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183669) > [@bluesman](#): > > I have a lot of insight into this, and I DO have the facts. I work this problem every day, and have for over three years. I know what I’m talking about, and when this is all over, the people that are bursting with smug pride over their role in the way-cool, hip, chic and popular anti-war movement will have dam’ little to say for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/65 "2006-02-21T22:50:53Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Big person claims with no evidence **Shodan**. Is this your normal practice, or an aberration? Because if its aberrant, brought on by interaction with me, then I again recommend you use the ignore list. Lord knows what end of bother its saved people on this board. That you are being an idiot is pretty self-evident to anyone who’s read your drivel. That you are on your way to banning is partly prediction and partly hope. Anyone who falsifies a quote (“Cause for us, it’s all about the bloodshed, torture and rapacity.” ) as you have done is probably not long for the Dope. And, as I mention, good riddance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/66 "2006-02-21T23:10:28Z")
The ‘I don’t know grammar’ schtick has got old **Shodan**. It seems I am in error and _have_ become your grammar teacher. [Quotation marks.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks) > [@](#): > > **Quotations and speech** > > Single or double quotation marks are used to denote either speech or a quotation ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/68 "2006-02-22T01:17:33Z")
> [@Johnny Applicant](#): > > Not every member of the military is as contemptible as those at Abu Ghraib, but anyone who makes the choice to be a soldier is nonetheless complicit to some extent with whatever the military does. If you don’t want to be associated with torture and murder, don’t join the army. Ok, but I’d hate to generalize that POV. The US, like any other nation, has legitimate security concerns and furthermore many military activities are rather defendable (Afghanistan, Bosnia and Kosovo come to mind, as would Darfur). Frankly, I think the military needs more officers with liberal leanings (not that I’m saying that Airman D is a liberal). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/69 "2006-02-22T02:05:40Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > As I’ve upbraided **Shodan** for big accusations without evidence, it’s only fair I substantiate my own claims: > > [Hey bluesman, a question for you.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183669) Well, ain’t _that_special - slamming stuff that happened here a year before you signed up at the Dope. As you may have noticed, I was in that thread. I’m fully aware of what **Bluesman** said here back then. But it wasn’t the only thing he posted here - wrong as it was for him to say those things in that way, it was hardly the total measure of the man, even when we limit the discussion to his SDMB persona. I would recommend you choose your words more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/71 "2006-02-22T16:34:42Z")
> [@Johnny Applicant](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > That you are being an idiot is pretty self-evident to anyone who’s read your drivel. That you are on your way to banning is partly prediction and partly hope. > > > > Anyone who falsifies a quote (“Cause for us, it’s all about the bloodshed, torture and rapacity.” ) as you have done is probably not long for the Dope. > > > > And, as I mention, good riddance. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > I don’t think there’s a rule that stating one’s opposition to the war in Iraq is a bannable offense, as much as you’d like to think otherwise. **Sevastapol** hasn’t broken any rules. **Johnny Applicant** BANNED Join Date: Feb 2006 My irony meter just shorted out. So, **Sevastopol** , does it tell you anything that the only one willing to stick up for your sorry ass is a sock puppet? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/72 "2006-02-22T20:50:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, ain’t _that_ special - slamming stuff that happened here a year before you signed up at the Dope. > > As you may have noticed, I was in that thread. I’m fully aware of what **Bluesman** said here back then. > > But it wasn’t the only thing he posted here - wrong as it was for him to say those things in that way, it was hardly the total measure of the man, even when we limit the discussion to his SDMB persona. > > I would recommend you choose your words more carefully. Colin Powell was once a reputable man too. He played his part and went to lie for the Republican administration in order to facilitate the needless death of tens of thousands of innocent people. Clearly it was a popular career move in the service. So you’ll forgive me if I neglect to mention that he also cooks a mean pumpkin pie. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/73 "2006-02-23T11:41:40Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Colin Powell was once a reputable man too. He played his part and went to lie for the Republican administration in order to facilitate the needless death of tens of thousands of innocent people. Clearly it was a popular career move in the service. > > So you’ll forgive me if I neglect to mention that he also cooks a mean pumpkin pie. Great analogy, dude. Between someone who actually was one of those _responsible_ for the Iraq Debacle, and someone who was obnoxious in three or four threads on one issue here on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/74 "2006-02-23T13:23:33Z")
[I can see how you might find this frustrating.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3000414&postcount=17) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887/75 "2006-02-23T14:32:01Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > [I can see how you might find this frustrating.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3000414&postcount=17) If that’s a rebuttal of my last post, note that you’ve linked to a post by **Doors** and not **Bluesman**. If that’s aimed at **Doors** , please note that that’s a 3 year old post, and he’s long since admitted error with respect to that issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-never-gets-old-does-it-ascribing-motives-by-political-association/344887.md?page=3)