# “It’s only treason if you lose.” What does it mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 4, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721 "2024-07-04T14:01:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/1 "2024-07-04T14:01:58Z")
I get the meaning of the phrase back when Ben Franklin allegedly said it, but what does it mean today? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/2 "2024-07-04T14:04:22Z")
I believe it can be summed up as “History is written by the victors.” Please note, [not said first by Churchill](https://slate.com/culture/2019/11/history-is-written-by-the-victors-quote-origin.html). I also believe you’re seeking opinions here. So let me move this to #In My Humble Opinion from #Factual Questions ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/3 "2024-07-04T14:08:32Z")
I am, thanks. I saw it on a shirt and wanted more information before speaking to them and getting drawn into a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/4 "2024-07-04T14:11:32Z")
Treason is opposition to the established government. If you have a revolution and win, you establish a new government. The people who were traitors to the old government are now loyalists to the new government. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/5 "2024-07-04T14:13:04Z")
We’ve also seen the opposite claim: The January 6 insurrection wasn’t really an insurrection, because it didn’t succeed. As to why someone would put that on a T-shirt, my first thought would be that they’re saying that they have to make sure not to fail this time, in other words, that they’re currently plotting treason. Actually, that’s my second and third thought, too. Even if one considers the statement to be true, I can’t think of any other reason one would want to put it on a shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/6 "2024-07-04T14:13:40Z")
I tried googling the shirt and got a few Libertarian and far-right places selling it. Shows how much I didn’t know this person. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/7 "2024-07-04T14:15:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We’ve also seen the opposite claim: The January 6 insurrection wasn’t really an insurrection, because it didn’t succeed. I think it would be more accurate to say that the January 6 insurrection wasn’t really an insurrection because the people who did it don’t know what the word insurrection means. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/8 "2024-07-04T14:18:17Z")
Sure they do. You get a bunch of roads all meeting at the same place with a light. That’s an insurrection, right? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/9 "2024-07-04T14:21:54Z")
I’ve seen January 6th more described as the attempted insurrection. Which you can still be tried for same as attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/10 "2024-07-04T14:23:15Z")
The winners make the rules. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/11 "2024-07-04T14:50:58Z")
Of Treason John Harington Treason doth never prosper; what’s the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/12 "2024-07-04T15:00:28Z")
So just based on the shirt- right-wing or no? I realize it’s shallow to judge just based on the shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/13 "2024-07-04T15:11:50Z")
It’s possible that the shirt wearer doesn’t know what it means. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/14 "2024-07-04T15:59:51Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > So just based on the shirt- right-wing or no? I realize it’s shallow to judge just based on the shirt. 99% chance it means they’re hard-right; dangerously hard right. The shirt may well have said “I support armed revolution”. 1% chance they don’t know what it means and they think it’s profound somehow. But even that is pretty far-fetched in today’s world. On a semi-related note, last night I attended a baseball game. On the 3rd of July and billed as a tribute to veterans. With fireworks after the show. As you might imagine, performative patriotism was much on display by the crowd. As well as a lot of old codgers in VFW regalia or wearing veteran baseball caps. Both I and the guy I went with are veterans, although we have no truck with the right at all, much less the hard right. Hard-rightness is not patriotism no matter how hard they try to wrap themselves in the flag that represents what they actually hate. Anyhow … I saw a guy wearing a T-shirt saying “If you live in this country support it. Otherwise move to the country you support” Which of course is a long-winded way of saying the same idea as the Viet Nam era slogan “America: love it or leave it.” Which also means “Unquestioningly obey your superiors in government. As long as they’re the right superiors.” Which T-shirt got me to thinking of a corresponding LW idea. I came up with “If you love your country, work every day to improve it. Not vandalize its improvements.” In each case there’s an assumption by the speaker of what “support”, “improve”, or “vandalize” means. But I think it gets the point across. Especially if there’s some other overt progressive / LW / Democratic cue. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/15 "2024-07-04T16:08:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I saw a guy wearing a T-shirt saying “If you live in this country support it. Otherwise move to the country you support” Which of course is a long-winded way of saying the same idea as the Viet Nam era slogan “America: love it or leave it.” Which also means “Unquestioningly obey your superiors in government. As long as they’re the right superiors.” I mean, that could mean that Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, etc. should move to Russia. That’s probably not what it does mean, but it could. ---
**Author:** ![teelabrown](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teelabrown/32/8412_2.png) [@teelabrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teelabrown)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/16 "2024-07-04T16:12:43Z")
This thread reminds me of a key exchange in Clavell’s _Shogun_: '“There are no ‘mitigating circumstances’ when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord,” chided Lord Toranaga. “Unless you win,” John Blackthorne replied.’ ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/17 "2024-07-04T16:18:34Z")
We only celebrate Washington and the American founders today as heroes because they won. If they’d lost, then the government would have remained British, and the revolutionaries would have been treated the way we treat the Confederacy today. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/18 "2024-07-04T16:30:14Z")
“Treason doth never prosper: what ’s the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.” ― John Harrington ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/19 "2024-07-04T16:50:09Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > Of Treason > John Harington > > Treason doth never prosper; what’s the reason? > For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. > [@silenus](#): > > “Treason doth never prosper: what ’s the reason? > Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.” > > ― John Harrington It’s awfully echoey here in these big old library buildings full of dusty quotes. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721/20 "2024-07-04T16:58:47Z")
That’s what happens when a young female cat demands attention while you are trying to read a thread. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-s-only-treason-if-you-lose-what-does-it-mean/1003721.md?page=2)