# It seems inevitable that US schools will soon need to teach about Islam. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050 "2014-11-08T06:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/121 "2014-12-01T17:34:02Z")
> [@nani](#): > > … > > 1. Placing the Sunni-Shia split at 632, when Muhammad died, is not historically accurate. There was a split at this time – the “apostate wars” – but Ali and Abu Bakr were on the same side. Ali was Caliph (recognized to this day by the Sunnis) from 656 to 661. The leadership disputes were ongoing, and it would take generations for there to be a clear split between Sunni and Shia. If you have to choose a single date, the first Fitna (civil war), roughly coinciding with Ali’s reign, or the battle of Karbala in 680 when his son Hussein was killed would be better. The split is also more important in some places than others. Many Sunnis identify as “just Muslim” in part because they are not concerned about Shi’ism at all. > … > 2. There is also the issue that these schools of fiqh were not founded as such, what happened was there was a particularly revered scholar and his students over a few generations started imitating him explicitly, and they began to be grouped by his name… In the Christian world, the year 1054 is commonly given as the “official” date on which Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy became separate faiths. This ignores, of course, that 1054 was the year in which mutual excommunications were _formally_ enacted by both sides. The underlying conflict, which involved both theological disputes and questions of polity/organization, had been simmering and causing problems for some time before that. So in 1053, you had a faith that was one really in name only and that was sorely divided with friend against friend and all that nastiness. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/122 "2014-12-01T18:45:34Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Why need somebody know the fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia? How can somebody compete any better by knowing any of this? > > Does Bill Gates? How about Donald Trump? Stephen Hawking? > > Nobody that I know who is successful can tell me any difference between them. Engineers, Pharmacists, Doctors, teachers, etc…nope, none of my acquaintances. > > I learned the difference 10 years ago. Didn’t help me a bit. Still can’t see a need, unless you’re actively involved in Islamic religious situations. > > Other nations don’t know the difference between US religions, which most certainly influence much of the world, since there are some 20-plus million evangelical voters in the US. (No cite, off the top of my head) Their lack of this knowledge hasn’t hurt them any. Any who know the difference can’t really benefit by it. > > Your assertion is grievously flawed. So you’re actively promoting ignorance if it doesn’t land you a job? :rolleyes: I think Donald Trump could stand to learn a bit about other religions, he could use it to be less ignorant. Then again I don’t know any type of curriculum that cures “born into your father’s money” ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/123 "2014-12-01T20:06:26Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I think what the OP meant to say is that we need to teach our children not about Islam, but why criticism of Islam is bigoted. > > In other words, chain our ensuing generations to the bonds of secular political correctness. (But it’s okay to criticize Christianity, of course) No. But we’ve learned about _you_–nothing we didn’t already know. I think the absent OP has a limited view of what has actually been taught in public schools . And doesn’t realize that many of the less backward parts of the country have Muslim _students_–home grown & imported. ETA: tomndebb is right about Medieval Universities. The Guilds were always separate… ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/124 "2014-12-18T02:40:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So you’re actively promoting ignorance if it doesn’t land you a job? :rolleyes: > > I think Donald Trump could stand to learn a bit about other religions, he could use it to be less ignorant. Then again I don’t know any type of curriculum that cures “born into your father’s money” So, you’re actively making up stuff to bolster your weak argument? I don’t care/know what Trump needs. Stick to the OP instead of making up stuff, and changing the subject to Donald Trump. :rolleyes::)😕:eek::mad::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/125 "2014-12-18T02:44:03Z")
[quote=“tomndebb, post:120, topic:704050”] Each of the disciplines taught reinforced the vconcepts, current in those era,of citizenship. QUOTE] If it did so, it was totally incidental; nobody cared about civics lessons then/there except for the barons, lords, etc… who would directly profit from it, if even then. You’re forcing your interpretation. Also, you’re saying that music, art. languages, mathematics reinforced the concepts of citizenship? Must have been the Renaissance/tomndebb version of them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/126 "2014-12-18T03:07:37Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Well, what intelligent decision did you make based on your knowledge of the differences between Sunni and Shia? What did you do _at all_, with the knowledge? How likely was it that the religious divide between Sunni and Shia in Iraq would ever have any effect on the United States? But there we were playing referee between the two religions. Some prior awareness of what we were stepping into would have been good and maybe would have deterred us from occupying Iraq. Over four thousand Americans died in Iraq so it wasn’t some trivial issue. Or were you asking what I did as an individual? Well, I knew enough about the Middle East to realize George Bush was too ignorant to be President so I voted against him twice. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/127 "2014-12-18T03:34:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Or were you asking what I did as an individual? Well, I knew enough about the Middle East to realize George Bush was too ignorant to be President so I voted against him twice. Wow, you Republicans voting against Bush amaze me. And, IIRC, the question wasn’t about the ME, it was about the differences between Shia and Sunni. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/128 "2014-12-18T04:06:48Z")
[quote=“YogSosoth, post:122, topic:704050”] So you’re actively promoting ignorance if it doesn’t land you a job? :rolleyes: [QUOTE] BTW, can you tell us why you chose to attend college/university as a matter of public service, rather than for a career? I’ll be interested to read that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/129 "2014-12-18T06:16:59Z")
> [@](#): > > [@handsomeharry](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Each of the disciplines taught reinforced the vconcepts, current in those era,of citizenship. , > > If it did so, it was totally incidental; nobody cared about civics lessons then/there except for the barons, lords, etc… who would directly profit from it, if even then. > You’re forcing your interpretation. > > Also, you’re saying that music, art. languages, mathematics reinforced the concepts of citizenship? Must have been the Renaissance/tomndebb version of them. I am not forcing anything; you keep jumping around making remarks about different eras with no apparent understanding of the subject. Your claim regarding the universities arising from guilds is refuted; the subjects taught in the earliest universities were not conducive to going out and getting a job. Name anyone in the fourteenth through seventeenth centuries who got a non-teaching, nonreligious, non-patronage “job” from a university. Recall that it was a statement regarding the earliest universities that brought up the guild nonsense. As to the liberal arts being an indicator of citizenship, (and your silly gibe about land grant colleges), you need to look Thomas Jefferson’s thoughts on founding the University of Virginia (long before the 1862 land grant legislation). You even got that wrong as the land grant schools tended to be closer to the trade schools being proposed in this thread, the trade being agriculture. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/130 "2014-12-20T05:05:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not forcing anything; you keep jumping around making remarks about different eras with no apparent understanding of the subject. > > Your claim regarding the universities arising from guilds is refuted; the subjects taught in the earliest universities were not conducive to going out and getting a job. Name anyone in the fourteenth through seventeenth centuries who got a non-teaching, nonreligious, non-patronage “job” from a university. Recall that it was a statement regarding the earliest universities that brought up the guild nonsense. > As to the liberal arts being an indicator of citizenship, (and your silly gibe about land grant colleges), you need to look Thomas Jefferson’s thoughts on founding the University of Virginia (long before the 1862 land grant legislation). You even got that wrong as the land grant schools tended to be closer to the trade schools being proposed in this thread, the trade being agriculture. I didn’t say that the early universities were for plumbers, et al, and don’t misquote me. I said that they arose from the guild system. Your confused interpretation of what I wrote is not a valid refutation. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/131 "2014-12-20T05:13:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Name anyone in the fourteenth through seventeenth centuries who got a non-teaching, nonreligious, non-patronage “job” from a university. Recall that it was a statement regarding the earliest universities that brought up the guild nonsense. > > As to the liberal arts being an indicator of citizenship, (and your silly gibe about land grant colleges), you need to look Thomas Jefferson’s thoughts on founding the University of Virginia (long before the 1862 land grant legislation). 1. “Name anyone…” lol. Name somebody that wasn’t employed in the above professions, who went for citizenship purposes. And, you’re getting confused. I’m not saying that I know all the names of the graduates from Renaissance universities, as you seem to try to make me say; I’m saying that the students didn’t go to be good citizens. 2. Jefferson: Why don’t you give some of his quotes, rather than have me try to make your arguments for you? I’m not saying that universities didn’t have the ability to give some sort of inkling of what the government wants; I’m saying that nobody goes for ‘citizenship’ purposes, and that the concept of ‘going to college for citizenship purposes’ is hype and money generating demagoguery. It was alleged earlier that I wasn’t fully informed on something like ‘the reason for going to college’. This is what I am ‘refuting’. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/132 "2014-12-20T05:44:57Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I didn’t say that the early universities were for plumbers, et al, and don’t misquote me. I said that they arose from the guild system. Your confused interpretation of what I wrote is not a valid refutation. I never claimed that you said that universities produced plumbers, so the “misquoting” is pretty much limited to your posts. As to the rest, your claims, while erroneous, are too vague to justify actually refuting them while you keep shifting the goalposts. You seem comfortable in your ignorance while providing no indication that you are leading others astray. \* ::: shrug ::: \* ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/133 "2014-12-20T08:38:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I never claimed that you said that universities produced plumbers, so the “misquoting” is pretty much limited to your posts. > > As to the rest, your claims, while erroneous, are too vague to justify actually refuting them while you keep shifting the goalposts. You seem comfortable in your ignorance while providing no indication that you are leading others astray. \* ::: shrug ::: \* Yeah, yeah…don’t bother reading your own posts in this thread… What are you trying to do, make this a pissing contest? OK, you win, now, back to the subject. \*I \*keep shifting the goalposts? WTF asked for names of Renaissance scholars/graduates? \*You \*can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/134 "2014-12-20T08:43:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I never claimed that you said that universities produced plumbers, so the “misquoting” is pretty much limited to your posts. > > - I never claimed that \*you \*said that I said anything, so, you are hoisted by your own petard. You’re being a literalist, behaving childishly…knock it off, you are to behave responsibly. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/135 "2014-12-21T13:39:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Say you want to teach the class about the life of a a teenager in Yemen. His particular religious beliefs are among twenty or more things that define that kid and it’s probably far from the most important. Going to a mosque and praying 5 times a day, every day of your life (whether you want to or not), is something of minor importance in defining who a person is? I am :dubious: of such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/136 "2014-12-21T14:42:27Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Going to a mosque and praying 5 times a day, every day of your life (whether you want to or not), is something of minor importance in defining who a person is? I am :dubious: of such a claim. Prayer occurs wherever one happens to be at the time, not a the mosque. The formal part of the prayers take less than a minute to recite. I would not say that it plays no role in one’s life, but it hardly seems to be a defining one. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/137 "2014-12-21T14:45:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Prayer occurs wherever one happens to be at the time, not a the mosque. The formal part of the prayers take less than a minute to recite. I would not say that it plays no role in one’s life, but it hardly seems to be a defining one. Prayer happens at a mosque if there is one available, not where one happens to be at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/138 "2014-12-21T15:50:05Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Prayer happens at a mosque if there is one available, not where one happens to be at the moment. Mosques aren’t quite like storefront churches saturating the cityscape or wayside chapels littering the landscape. Cities are not depopulated five times a day. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050/139 "2014-12-22T20:21:28Z")
I went to HS from 1989-1993. We definitely covered the major religions in world history class, including the sunni/shia split in Islam. This was a public High School in Cleveland, OH. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-inevitable-that-us-schools-will-soon-need-to-teach-about-islam/704050.md?page=6)