# It seems that private prisons are violating the 13th Amendment
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 19, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980 "2018-01-19T16:38:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/1 "2018-01-19T16:38:36Z")
- or at least coming close.
**[Class-action lawsuit alleges immigrants are forced to labor in detention](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sd-detention-center-20171230-story.html)**
> [@](#):
>
> The class-action lawsuit, filed Wednesday in San Diego federal court, alleges that immigrants at Otay Mesa Detention Center are paid at most $1.50 per day, and sometimes not paid at all, for their work as kitchen staff, janitors, barbers and various other roles. It further alleges that the facility doesn’t provide all of the basic necessities that detainees need for daily life, such as soap, which means they have to work in order to buy those items at the commissary.
>
> The lawsuit also contends that facility staff have threatened to put detainees in solitary confinement or take away visitation rights if they said they didn’t want to work.
[PRIVATE PRISON CONTINUES TO SEND ICE DETAINEES TO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR REFUSING VOLUNTARY LABOR](https://theintercept.com/2018/01/11/ice-detention-solitary-confinement/)
> [@](#):
>
> Ahmed’s account adds to a growing chorus of ICE detainees who allege that they have been forced to work in for-profit ICE facilities or else risk punishment with solitary confinement — a harsh form of captivity that, if prolonged, can amount to torture. Late last month, ICE detainees at a CoreCivic-run facility in California sued the private prison contractor, alleging that they had been threatened with solitary confinement if they did not work. In October, The Intercept reported that officials had placed another detainee in solitary confinement for 30 days for “encouraging others to participate in a work stoppage” at the same privately run facility where Ahmed was disciplined, the Stewart Detention Center in Lumpkin, Georgia.
---
### Author:  [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/2 "2018-01-19T17:07:01Z")
I, for one, am shocked that private prisons that aren’t accountable to anyone do things like this!
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/3 "2018-01-19T17:13:11Z")
> [@The 13th Amendment](#):
>
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/4 "2018-01-19T17:34:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Have ICE detainee’s been convicted of anything? My first impulse is “no”. Hopefully, once it has been adjudicated that they are illegally here, they are deported.
---
### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/5 "2018-01-19T17:39:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
Seems a little coy.
If you’re referring to the “duly convicted” phrase, I don’t know, are these “detainees” convicted of anything? I scanned the article briefly and only saw references to people crossing the border and being “picked up” and detained.
The terminology isn’t clear to me. Wouldn’t they be “convicts” and in a “prison” if duly convicted? I have been under the impression that “detainees” in a “detention center” were not (yet) convicted of anything. Is that right or wrong?
Or are you referring to something else entirely?
---
### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/6 "2018-01-19T17:45:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Dude, what crime have these detainees been duly convicted of?
It is not a crime to overstay your visa. Yes, you can be kicked out of the country and not allowed to come back, but it’s still not a crime.
And these people haven’t even been adjudicated to not have the right to stay in the country, that’s why they are being detained, so that their status can be legally determined.
---
### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/7 "2018-01-19T17:47:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Generally, illegal presence s not a crime, [it’s a civil violation.](http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/florida-conference-catholic-bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/)
> [@](#):
>
> According to legal experts, the answer is that most of the time, unlawful presence is not a crime.
>
> When we checked with the Florida Conference of Catholic Bishops, Michele M. Taylor, the group’s associate director for communications, pointed to the 2012 Supreme Court case Arizona vs. United States. The majority opinion found that “as a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States.”
>
> Experts agreed. Unlawful presence is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the libertarian Cato Institute. It is a civil infraction that results in removal and a bar on re-entry for a certain period of time.
>
> “Not everything that’s illegal — meaning against the law or violating the law — is a crime,” Shapiro said. “There are civil violations, like when you get a parking ticket. ‘Unlawful presence’ is one of these. You don’t go to jail or receive any other criminal punishment for being in the country illegally — you get deported.”
There’s also that pesky Constitution which applies to anyone on US soil(except for citizen privileges like voting).
---
### Author:  [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/8 "2018-01-19T18:08:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Nope. As others have pointed out. No convictions. In fact, there is at least a chance some non-zero number of the detainees might be released after they prove they belong in the USA. Otherwise, they’d be out of the country already.
---
### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/9 "2018-01-19T18:10:52Z")
Ignore Shodan. He’s trolling again.
---
### Author:  [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/10 "2018-01-19T18:13:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Is it the use of the word “their” instead of “its”?
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/11 "2018-01-19T18:16:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
“Weasel words” seems much too mild for crap like this.
Perhaps “hyena words”?
---
### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/12 "2018-01-19T18:20:36Z")
How about “Bricker words”?
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/13 "2018-01-19T18:32:19Z")
To be fair, the thread title refers to “prisons”, not to ICE detainment facilities. That might be cause for some confusion.
---
### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/14 "2018-01-19T18:45:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> To be fair, the thread title refers to “prisons”, not to ICE detainment facilities. That might be cause for some confusion.
“TL;DR” isn’t a good defense.
---
### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/15 "2018-01-19T21:56:16Z")
Well, being sent to Solitary for refusing kinda negates the ‘voluntary’ aspect.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/16 "2018-01-19T22:06:15Z")
Come now people, I think we can agree that as long as a business is a for-profit business in a competitive market operating on free market principles, it’s literally impossible for them to do any thing wrong, because if they did the invisible hand would rise up and slap them. Yes, the detainees would choose to stay in a different detainment center, so since they don’t we can be absolutely confident that any slavery you see them doing is perfectly okay because of, again, Free Market.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/17 "2018-01-19T22:11:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Many people already rightfully called you out on the fact that these are detainees, not convicts, and therefore, no, there is nothing in there that would affect the argument, but I have another reason why your statement is useless.
What does it say in the amendment? Does it say, “If convicted of a crime, then they may be enslaved or used for involuntary servitude”? No, it says “as punishment for the crime”.
So, if the sentence of the crime calls for “hard labor”, then that gets around the 13th. If the sentence is for 10 years in jail, then the jail doesn’t get to decide to use them as involuntary servitude or slavery.
---
### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/18 "2018-01-19T22:18:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Come now people, I think we can agree that as long as a business is a for-profit business in a competitive market operating on free market principles, it’s literally impossible for them to do any thing wrong, because if they did the invisible hand would rise up and slap them. Yes, the detainees would choose to stay in a different detainment center, so since they don’t we can be absolutely confident that any slavery you see them doing is perfectly okay because of, again, Free Market.
There’s no reviews on Yelp! or tripadvisor. How would they know which Detainment Center to choose?
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/19 "2018-01-19T22:20:25Z")
> [@running\_coach](#):
>
> There’s no reviews on Yelp! or tripadvisor. How would they know which Detainment Center to choose?
Well, the free market dictates by definition that customers can make informed decisions about their buying choices, so we can safely presume that they’ll get the information _somehow_.
---
### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/20 "2018-01-19T22:26:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Well, the free market dictates by definition that customers can make informed decisions about their buying choices, so we can safely presume that they’ll get the information _somehow_.
The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.
Unfortunately, it’s all in sign language, because it’s just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.
Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can’t blame the Hand for trying.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980.md?page=2)