# It seems that private prisons are violating the 13th Amendment
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 19, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980 "2018-01-19T16:38:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/21 "2018-01-19T22:30:06Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.
>
> Unfortunately, it’s all in sign language, because it’s just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.
>
> Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can’t blame the Hand for trying.
So, although I might feel strongly that The Invisible Hand is flipping us all off, I can’t _prove_ it?
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/22 "2018-01-19T23:03:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Can you? I’m sure a fine fellow such as you have always shown yourself to be would never consider withholding the benefits obtained by your eagle-eyed attention to detail and commitment to rational, fact-based discourse.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/23 "2018-01-20T00:15:50Z")
This is an interesting case. I don’t think you can claim that “not paying someone MW” = “slavery”. They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/24 "2018-01-20T00:27:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> This is an interesting case. I don’t think you can claim that “not paying someone MW” = “slavery”. They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
So you’re saying that they are free to not accept the terms of their employment? :dubious:
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### Author:  [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/25 "2018-01-20T00:29:35Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.
>
> Unfortunately, it’s all in sign language, because it’s just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.
>
> Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can’t blame the Hand for trying.
thank you
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/26 "2018-01-20T00:32:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> So you’re saying that they are free to not accept the terms of their employment? :dubious:
I’m saying I doubt that what we think of as normal labor laws apply in this instance. I could be wrong, but has anyone successfully prosecuted a 13th amendment violation for something similar? If so, I’ll stand corrected.
I think we should also look at the contact these places have with ICE to see if anything like this is covered. I don’t know if it is, but it wouldn’t at all surprise me if it was.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/27 "2018-01-20T00:50:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> This is an interesting case. I don’t think you can claim that “not paying someone MW” = “slavery”.
You CAN say that “not paying someone MW” = “involuntary servitude”. This seems to be the very definition of it. They are ordered to work, and punished if they refuse.
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### Author:  [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/28 "2018-01-20T01:03:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> This is an interesting case. I don’t think you can claim that “not paying someone MW” = “slavery”. They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
> [@The Article in the OP](#):
>
> The lawsuit also contends that facility staff have threatened to put detainees in solitary confinement or take away visitation rights if they said they didn’t want to work.
Sure, but “not paying someone minimum wage” combined with “throwing them into solitary confinement and taking away visitation rights” gets a lot closer, no?
Assuming that the latter claim is true.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/29 "2018-01-20T01:41:13Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#):
>
> Sure, but “not paying someone minimum wage” combined with “throwing them into solitary confinement and taking away visitation rights” gets a lot closer, no?
>
> Assuming that the latter claim is true.
It’s unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement. But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/30 "2018-01-20T02:39:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> To be fair, the thread title refers to “prisons”, not to ICE detainment facilities. That might be cause for some confusion.
There’s a lot of room for confusion on that issue. Some ICE detainment facilities are located inside regular prisons and are operated by prison employees.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/31 "2018-01-20T02:45:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> This is an interesting case. I don’t think you can claim that “not paying someone MW” = “slavery”. They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
They were quite open about this when I worked in prisons. Yes, what prisoners were doing was involuntary servitude. But it was legal because they had been sentenced as punishment for crimes. A prisoner cannot refuse to work when he’s ordered to do so.
As others have noted, this may not apply to people being held in a prison as detainees.
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### Author:  [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/32 "2018-01-20T11:59:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> So, although I might feel strongly that The Invisible Hand is flipping us all off, I can’t _prove_ it?
Maybe you should try [Learned Hand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_Hand).
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/33 "2018-01-20T12:08:45Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.
>
> Unfortunately, it’s all in sign language, because it’s just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.
>
> Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can’t blame the Hand for trying.
_sigh_ once more, with feeling : the whole Invisible Hand theory hinged on the pre-requisite, yet naively hopeful notion that all actors will be rational and, above all, MORAL. Which might even have not been all that naive in Adam Smith’s time, when reputation was paramount. In these days of who gives a fuck, the Hand needs a leash and 20 lashes a day till it learns to behave.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/34 "2018-01-20T12:21:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> It’s unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement. But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
Whether it’s the detention center or ICE that’s in the wrong is all about the contract.
But if there’s no “crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted” that they’re in detention on account of, and they’re being forced to work anyway, then _somebody’s_ violating the 13th Amendment here.
Also, I can’t see if it matters whether “the party” has actually been punished for refusing to work, or has merely been informed that a refusal to work will have negative repercussions visited upon him. Involuntary servitude under the threat of punishment, and refusal to serve resulting in punishment, are two sides of the same coin. Maybe it’s an empty threat, but how does the prisoner know that?
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/35 "2018-01-20T14:08:56Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> Dude, what crime have these detainees been duly convicted of?
In Shodan’s world, accused and detained = convicted. Just as long as it’s not he who stands accused and detained.
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### Author:  [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/36 "2018-01-22T16:49:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> It’s unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement.
Does that matter?
Let’s say I offer to employ somebody for no money, and tell them I’ll lock them up if they don’t agree. But they believe me, so I don’t ever lock them up. Not slavery?
> [@](#):
>
> But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
Does that matter?
Let’s say the same above situation, but now I have a piece of paper written by a third party that says I’m allowed to force the person to work without pay? Not slavery?
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/37 "2018-01-22T16:58:37Z")
I don’t think that the pay, or lack thereof, enters into the question of involuntary servitude at all. I mean, I’ve worked for people without pay plenty of times, and there are many organizations that couldn’t exist without people working without pay, and nobody has any problem with that. The problem isn’t that the servitude is unpaid; it’s that it’s involuntary. It’s right there in the term “involuntary servitude”. And the work described here is pretty clearly involuntary.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/38 "2018-01-22T17:30:15Z")
Let the free market prevail; the prisoners can vote with their shivs.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/39 "2018-01-22T19:40:31Z")
To be fair, there are quite a lot of lawsuits filed alleging improper or abusive treatment by prisons, jails and other detention facilities. Most have no merit; prisoners are generally not the most credible witnesses. This one may, but I prefer to reserve my outrage until there’s at least some evidence in.
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### Author:  [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-seems-that-private-prisons-are-violating-the-13th-amendment/806980/40 "2018-01-29T02:53:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> But if there’s no “crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted” that they’re in detention on account of, and they’re being forced to work anyway, then _somebody’s_ violating the 13th Amendment here.
I don’t know if that’s really true. You can be forced to be a soldier, and quite possibly die, and that’s apparently A-OK with the 13th considering how many young men were drafted. How is a detention center more of a violation of one’s ability to choose than the draft?
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