# It takes 67 senate votes to impeach. Please don't waste our time. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298 "2018-01-23T15:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/101 "2018-01-25T05:57:24Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Impeachment was marginally valid in the case of Andrew Johnson (and the Senate failed to convict him largely because not everyone in the Senate felt it was an appropriate action, despite being politically attractive), The Senate didn’t remove Johnson because Ben Wade was soft money and had a tendency to be sarcastic and verbally abusive to people he disagreed with. He had made enough enemies in the Senate that they didn’t want to vote him President. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/102 "2018-01-25T05:59:14Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > In the absence of any better evidence that the President has committed “high crimes and(or) misdemeanors”, I do not support any attempt to impeach the President (let alone trying said impeachment in the Senate). Impeachment was marginally valid in the case of Andrew Johnson… There needs to be a procedure to dump someone wholly unfit for the Presidency, some version of no confidence. At the very least, the President needs to have first strike nuclear capability taken away in the absence of a Congressional declaration of war. Cite: [Impeach Donald Trump: The case for firing an unfit president - Vox](https://www.vox.com/2017/11/30/16517022/impeachment-donald-trump) OTOH, maybe the Constitution _is_ a suicide pact. > [@](#): > > …and was in no way appropriate in the case of Bill Clinton (and was thus seen as nothing but a cynical political ploy by the Republican Party to obtain retribution). These examples should inform and guide us as a nation. There is a real case for retribution against the bullshit of the 1990s. Especially when we have a parallel situation: if Trump _ever_ testifies under oath, he will purger himself, and not in a way that involves bizarro definitions of sex offered by the prosecution. Trump will flat out lie, no technical or narrow accuracy involved. We could give the GOP a mulligan. But that would be unethical: failure to adequately punish wrongdoing has consequences. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/103 "2018-01-25T06:07:11Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There needs to be a procedure to dump someone wholly unfit for the Presidency, some version of no confidence. Isn’t that exactly what Section 4 of the 25th Amendment is? > [@](#): > > Section 4. > Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/104 "2018-01-25T06:22:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Isn’t that exactly what Section 4 of the 25th Amendment is? Good point. I say, “Yes and no.” Benjamin Franklin considered impeachment to be a gentler scenario than assassination or what we would today call a coup. So arguably impeachment is sufficient. Read broadly, the 25th amendment covers the situation as well. Read narrowly, it applies to a President who is comatose or droolingly insane. That was the chief scenario that Congress had in mind during the 1960s. Ezra Klein: [INDENT][INDENT] When I spoke to Rep. Lofgren, she argued that the language was open to interpretation. “The 25th Amendment doesn’t mention medical,” she said. “It mentions ‘unable to discharge one’s duties,’ so it’s a judgment call.” But the text of her resolution shows how deeply we associate the power with physical deterioration. It calls on “the vice president and the cabinet to quickly secure the services of medical and psychiatric professionals to examine the president … to determine whether the president suffers from a mental disorder or other injury that impairs his abilities and prevents him from discharging his Constitutional duties.” It is worth playing out that scenario. Imagine that Vice President Mike Pence and the Cabinet did compel Trump to undergo psychiatric evaluation. And imagine the psychiatrist did return a diagnosis of some kind, be it early-stage dementia or narcissistic personality disorder (plenty of psychiatrists stand ready to diagnose Trump with all manner of mental ailments, so this is not far-fetched). The vote is taken, and Trump is removed from office. To many of Trump’s supporters — and perhaps many of his opponents — this would look like nothing less than a coup; the swamp swallowing the man who sought to drain it. Imagine the Breitbart headlines, the Fox News chyrons. And would they truly be wrong? Whatever Trump is today, he was that man when he was elected too. The same speech patterns were in evidence; the same distractibility was present. The tweets, the conspiracy theories, the chaos: It was all there. The American people, mediated by the Electoral College, delivered their verdict; mustn’t it now be respected? [/INDENT][/INDENT] Me: so, yes and no. Ezra Klein continues: [INDENT][INDENT] Here is the counterargument: Our political system was designed by men who believed the mass public could make mistakes, and so they set up failsafes, emergency processes by which political elites could act. The Electoral College, which was ironically the key to Trump’s victory, was one of those failsafes — a collection of political actors who would be informed by the popular vote, but not bound by it. Today, however, the ideology of democracy has taken fiercer hold, elites are held in low regard, and those failsafes are themselves failing. Perhaps political elites have forgotten the work they are actually here to do — which is not simply to win elections or give blind quotes to Politico. “The case for the 25th Amendment or any other solution is that if a situation is dangerous, elites have a responsibility to risk popular backlash and even appear to be overturning the results of the election,” Douthat told me. In this telling, it is the job of elites to be a bulwark precisely when that job is hardest to carry out. The question is whether this cure is worse than the disease. For all the dangers Trump poses, his removal poses dangers too. [/INDENT][/INDENT] I say that our creeky consitutional system could be improved with such innovations as no confidence votes, proportional representation and an end to the primary system. But frankly, that’s just changing the subject. Or more charitably providing some context. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/105 "2018-01-25T06:32:35Z")
Well yes, invoking the 25th would be an atom bomb. It could only be used in a real “he is trying to be Hitler” moment or if he starts using his salad fork while eating fish. Both clear signs of a psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/106 "2018-01-25T06:45:10Z")
Ironically, the Founding Fathers accounted for tyranny of the majority on the minority, but didn’t foresee tyranny of the minority on the majority. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/107 "2018-01-25T06:59:23Z")
What would a “trying to be Hitler” moment look like? I think it looks like the behaviour of the Trump administration during the last year, right down to pining for military parades and screaming “Lugenpresse!” I’d give leeway concerning the cutlery, though. There’s no reason to think Trump knows what a salad fork does or that he’s ever eaten fish that didn’t come in frozen patty form from Corporate. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/108 "2018-01-25T07:00:39Z")
Two Republican Senators could provide us with a meaningful investigation of Trump’s finances and ties to organized crime, Russia, and illegal profiteering in the Presidency. Only two. James Fallows: [Have They No Sense of Decency? - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/have-you-no-sense-of-decency/550502/) [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]If only two of those senators would stand up against Donald Trump, with their votes rather than just their tweets or concerned statements, they would constitute an effective majority. With the 49 Democratic and independent senators, these two would make 51 votes, which in turn would be enough to authorize real investigations. They could pass a formal resolution of censure. They could call for tax returns and financial disclosure. They could begin hearings, on the model of the nationally televised Watergate hearings of 45 years ago. They could behave as if they took seriously their duties to hold the executive branch accountable. They could make a choice they know will be to their credit when this era enters history — as did the Republicans who finally turned against their own party’s President Nixon during the Watergate drama, as did the Democrats who finally turned against their own party’s President Johnson over the Vietnam war, as did the Republicans who finally turned against their own poisonous Senator McCarthy in the episode that gave rise to “Have you no sense of decency?” more than 60 years ago. They could spare themselves the shame that history attaches to people who did the wrong thing, or nothing, or kept looking the other way during those decisive periods. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] One job. Two men or women. Just two. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/109 "2018-01-25T11:50:26Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I don’t think it is zero sacrifice. Congress gets obsessed with it for a year, nothing gets done And again, if a split Congress is your assumption, not much was getting done anyway. So, zero sacrifice. > [@](#): > > and everybody shares in the national headache. If you are truly dissatisfied with Trump, then you know we’re already in an enormous national headache. If not, then your selling something else here. > [@](#): > > And we look stupid to the rest of the world if we go through all that for no result. Don’t care what France thinks about how we run our internal affairs. > [@](#): > > And further undermine faith in institutions. How does that follow? It would worse undermine faith in institutions if the institutions did, you know, nothing at all because it wasn’t politically expedient. And I think Congress critters are already on the record. Everybody knows who supports Trump already. The GOP has a divided caucus, with Flake and Murkowski opposing at least most proposals. To get most things passed, Dem support will be required. How about we work on accomplishing some results instead of having a big procedural logjam? > [@](#): > > “It’s time to stop \_\_\_\_\_\_” is good rhetoric, but not really a good reason for storming down a foolish path. This is nonsense. Literally the biggest deciding factor in any action is that the time has come. But setting the semantics aside, the point is every sitting legislator should go on record with their decision so that voters can hold them accountable for the next election. And this is not a bookkeeping exercise, it’s the heart of our democratic decision-making process. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/110 "2018-01-25T14:21:28Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, folks. I think Trump is a bad president, for more reasons than just promoting an agenda I don’t like. He’s rude and unprofessional, offensive and and international embarrassment, divisive, uninformed, self-centered, and the jury is still out on whether he is a criminal and what kind. If you are reading this thread I am sure you know the litany. > > I would not mind seeing him out of office. Maybe my POV is different from some on this board- I am an independent pragmatist who only registered D in the last cycle to vote Sanders in the primary. I’m not a “liberal”, but I’m no conservative either. It doesn’t matter. The point is, there are not the votes to impeach Trump. > > Does anyone argue this point? Does anyone of any political persuasion think impeachment can get through Congress, especially the Senate? I’d wager not many. Tell all this to Al Green, who has been stupid enough to file not one, but two, [bills of impeachment](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/01/19/democratic-rep-al-green-introduces-articles-impeachment-against-trump-again.html) against Trump. Never mind the fact that Trump has done nothing whatsoever to warrant impeachment. Green just wants him gone and will probably keep doing this until he gets voted out of office. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/111 "2018-01-25T14:42:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Ironically, the Founding Fathers accounted for tyranny of the majority on the minority, but didn’t foresee tyranny of the minority on the majority. Given that only a minority of adults could vote during the early years of the Republic, I’d say that’s clearly untrue. Tyranny of the minority was the norm, they just didn’t think the “minority” (non-landowning, or non-white, or non-males, which together was actually the majority) should generally even be considered for the franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/112 "2018-01-25T15:13:52Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’d give leeway concerning the cutlery, though. There’s no reason to think Trump knows what a salad fork does or that he’s ever eaten fish that didn’t come in frozen patty form from Corporate. [drax]Trump would never eat salad. Or fish. So stupid.[/drax] Stranger ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/113 "2018-01-25T15:41:58Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > … he will purger himself, … I’m trying to imagine someone purging themselves. It’s not a pretty sight. I think you meant perjure (?). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/114 "2018-01-25T15:45:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Ironically, the Founding Fathers accounted for tyranny of the majority on the minority, but didn’t foresee tyranny of the minority on the majority. They didn’t think of that as tyranny. Most of the Founding Fathers were very much closer to modern-day libertarians than anything else. Government being stifled from acting was perfectly fine with them. Indeed, that’s the whole point to worrying about the tyranny of the masses. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/115 "2018-01-25T15:58:44Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > This is nonsense. Literally the biggest deciding factor in any action is that the time has come. But setting the semantics aside, the point is every sitting legislator should go on record with their decision so that voters can hold them accountable for the next election. And this is not a bookkeeping exercise, it’s the heart of our democratic decision-making process. Well that’s all ridiculous. The biggest deciding factor for any action is what effect it will have. And if the Mueller investigation doesn’t turn up something really good, the effect of an impeachment will be to make the Dems look like hysterical ineffectual partisans. Trying to turn over the Presidential elections results because Trump is a goofball, when he ran his campaign on precisely his goofballness, doesn’t sound like the heart of democracy to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/116 "2018-01-25T16:18:36Z")
I have a strong feeling Pence has been deliberately left out of the loop and shielded from anything terribly nefarious for this very scenario. I feel he’s Trump’s insurance policy against impeachment (since his social views at least SHOULD be scary to democrats), and the insurance policy for the Republican party in general in case Trump does get forcibly removed. I see the chances of a Pelosi presidency before 2020 as essentially 0% no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/117 "2018-01-25T19:18:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And if the Mueller investigation doesn’t turn up something really good, the effect of an impeachment will be to make the Dems look like hysterical ineffectual partisans. Which means precisely zero in a world where Fox News is already blaring this smear 24x7. May as well give them something real to whine about. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/118 "2018-01-25T19:41:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Which means precisely zero in a world where Fox News is already blaring this smear 24x7. May as well give them something real to whine about. No, “may as well” is a pretty stupid way to decide on a course of action. If Mueller’s investigation, which I trust will be thorough (do you?), doesn’t turn up anything then an attempt at impeachment will be a circle jerk smear campaign/fishing trip. If you want to imitate Whitewater then go ahead. Just don’t bullshit us with “heart of our democracy” talk. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/119 "2018-01-25T20:52:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, “may as well” is a pretty stupid way to decide on a course of action. If Mueller’s investigation, which I trust will be thorough (do you?), doesn’t turn up anything then an attempt at impeachment will be a circle jerk smear campaign/fishing trip. I am not saying they should impeach on a whim. I am saying that if Mueller comes up with cause, or if other cause emerges, the Dems absolutely should impeach and not give a shit what the Republicans will do in the Senate. Regarding what Republicans think, they’ve already shown themselves to be spineless toadies who will parrot Trump’s line no matter what. We know they’re going to paint Democrats as hysterical partisans no matter the outcome, so their moral outrage can be safely disregarded. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298/120 "2018-01-25T20:53:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > And again, if a split Congress is your assumption, not much was getting done anyway. So, zero sacrifice. Big assumption right there. Impeachment proceedings all but guarantee nothing whatsoever gets done. If it fails to remove Trump, chalk the whole year up as a giant goose egg. OTOH, with business as “normal”, there is at least hope that something useful will get passed. More so if the Dems take over Congress. This country has more pressing problems than an infantile president. The sick? The poor? Prescription opiod addicts from an irresponsible lack of regulation? Want to just forget them to spend a year taking a roll call of senators who won’t publicly denounce Trump as a poopy head? > [@](#): > > If you are truly dissatisfied with Trump, then you know we’re already in an enormous national headache. If not, then your selling something else here. I am usually dissatisfied with elected officials. Politics has a way of being disappointing. No secret agenda to this thread, sir. > [@](#): > > Don’t care what France thinks about how we run our internal affairs. I can accept that. But let’s not make the mistake of pretending the rest of the world doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > How does that follow? It would worse undermine faith in institutions if the institutions did, you know, nothing at all because it wasn’t politically expedient. The kind of faith in institutions I am going for is in their demonstration of doing functionally useful things. A failed impeachment is a giant waste of time, exactly what the worst billionaires want. > [@](#): > > This is nonsense. Literally the biggest deciding factor in any action is that the time has come. But setting the semantics aside, the point is every sitting legislator should go on record with their decision so that voters can hold them accountable for the next election. And this is not a bookkeeping exercise, it’s the heart of our democratic decision-making process. What Carnal K said. Also, I think the time will have come when the votes are there. That ain’t now. Putting senators on the record as favoring a year of hog tied government that pleases their donors over impeaching their own president is useless. No practical value. As a pragmatist, I want results. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-takes-67-senate-votes-to-impeach-please-dont-waste-our-time/807298.md?page=7)