# It was a good day for Islamic feminism in DC **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2002, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796 "2002-03-24T03:09:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Muslim\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Muslim\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muslim_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2002, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/1 "2002-03-24T03:09:56Z")
Thursday, March 21, 2002, the first day of spring and a beautiful cherry blossom day in Washington, DC. At midday, a panel on “Securing Legal Rights of Afghan Women” spoke at the Washington College of Law, led by the law professor **Azizah al-Hibri** , who has taken a leading role in founding **Karamah: Muslim Women Lawyers for Human Rights** [http://www.karamah.org/](http://www.karamah.org/) and participated in the Brussels Summit on planning a role for women in the future Afghan government. She introduced the basis of Islamic law, interpretation of the Qur’ân, and _ijtihâd_ (interpretation of the law). She explained how important it is, in reforming women’s rights in Islam, to derive it from the Qur’ân and the sources of _fiqh_ (jurisprudence) as a basis; otherwise it will not fly with the Muslims. Dr. Azizah told how scholars like her have been painstakingly going back through the development of _fiqh_ and identifying the point at which extraneous patriarchal influence was inserted; removing that can bring out the original intent of the Qur’ân as supportive of women’s rights. **Mariam Nabawi** , an attorney who was born in Afghanistan, spoke next about the process of rewriting the Afghan constitution, and the need for explicit protection of women’s equality in it. The 1964 constitution that the country is revisiting provided for the rights of all citizens without specifically mentioning gender equality; it had been applied to bring about more gender equality, but now there is a need to use exact language to guarantee it. She didn’t mention the E.R.A., but that’s in effect what she was aiming at. The Afghanistan constitution needs an E.R.A. **Hibaaq Osman** , Founding Director of the Center for Strategic Initiatives of Women, told of the difficult post-Taliban conditions for women she found during her recent visit to Afghanistan, and the shameful extent to which the Ministry for Women’s Affairs has been neglected in the new government. You hear of all these millions of dollars in aid going to Afghanistan. How much did the Ministry for Women’s Affairs receive of this? A measly nine thousand. The schools have nothing to operate with. The speakers emphasized that the wearing of the burqa is not the important issue that Westerners have made of it; what matters for Afghan women is establishing legal rights, economic assistance, education, health care. They reported the accusation that a high official in the interim government is alleged to have been a rapist. The Northern Alliance includes guys who think it’s all right to rape the wives of defeated Taliban. This shows how the situation for women there still has far to go toward improvement and security. The upcoming Loya Jirga to form the new government is supposed to include women, but it still hasn’t achieved gender parity. Out of 800 members, maybe 100 will be women. The speakers reiterated that Western feminists need to understand the issues for Muslim women from the Islamic feminists’ point of view: positive change can only come about through Islam, not in opposition to Islam. The sources of Islam contain the basis for women’s rights and gender equality, and Islamic feminist scholars are working to bring that dimension to the forefront. Next came **Fatima Mernissi** ’s visit to Washington. Professor Mernissi spoke in the evening at the Politics and Prose bookstore. Because of another engagement, I was only able to arrive late near the end of her talk. She was relating her current research in civil society. Although she’s famous for her important work in Islamic feminism, she said she left women’s issues and began work on civil society during the Gulf War, when Arab dictatorial governments became discredited for allying with the United States. She turned to studying civil society when she observed how the people on the fringes of Moroccan society had learned to manage their own affairs. Not people in Rabat or other major cities, but desert and mountain villagers who got connected to the Internet, are Muslims learning to democratize themselves. She learned from women of Pakistan while conducting writing workshops there. Actually, her work in Islamic feminism flows into her current research, given that the new developments in Muslim civil society include gender equity. She also found that **Sufism** is key to bringing out the recent liberal developments in Islamic society, including grass roots democracy and gender equality. Mernissi analyzed how in the Muslim world, men control women through space. The space (harem or public) in which women can exist is tightly regulated: mostly in men’s harem fantasies, but it became reality under the Taliban. Whereas in the West, they proclaim freedom for women’s space while they use time to control women: only when they’re young are they valued, and when they age they’re devalued and thus limited. So “Size 6 is the Western harem”—this brought a laugh. The first part of her talk had been introducing her new book, _Scheherazade Goes West_, about the contradictions between the Western Orientalists’ unreal fantasies of harem women, and the reality of the harem which forced Muslim women to develop their intellects. One of her main points is that Muslim culture, far more than the West, values learned, intellectual women who use their brains to get ahead in life. She has her own web site now: [http://www.mernissi.net/](http://www.mernissi.net/) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2002, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/2 "2002-03-24T05:08:05Z")
Okay, but–what did you want to debate? ---
**Author:** ![Muslim\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Muslim\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muslim_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/3 "2002-03-24T15:46:05Z")
Your point is well taken. I guess this isn’t really a debate. I put it here because it’s a religious topic, going by the forum description: “and (if you feel you must) witnessing.” Does this count as witnessing? How about _I saw the light! I saw the light! No more in darkness, no more in night Now I’m so happy, no sorrow in sight Praise the Lord! I saw the light!_ Or maybe the OP was just MPSIMS material after all. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/4 "2002-03-24T19:17:43Z")
Well, it’s good to know what Azizah Al-Hibri is up to these days! She’s the author of my single favorite definitive quote about radical feminism as a theoretical vantage point that isn’t (dammit) the same thing as the socialist feminist theory generally taught in academia: > [@](#): > > [An article by Heidi Hartmann supporting the socialist feminist project, titled] “The Unhappy Marriage of Marxism and Feminism” attempts to expose the interrelations between patriarchy and capitalism but fails in one important respect. It accepts uncritically, and from the outset, the widely-held belief that patriarchy and capitalism, although interrelated, are conceptually (or ideologically) independent. Such a view of patriarchy and capitalism does not reach the heart of the matter… > > Conceptually, capitalism is an advanced stage of patriarchy. Given that framework, the assessment of marxism and its relationship to feminism, patriarchy and capitalism emerges with surprising clarity. Strategically, then, the struggle against capitalism, racism, imperialism and any other product of man’s attempt at domination of the Other must be based on an understanding of their basic patriarchal nature, and must be therefore regarded as part and parcel of the feminist struggle. (Al-Hibri 1981, pp. 166-7, 190) “Capitalism is an Advanced State of Patriarchy; But Marxism is not Feminism”. in Lydia Sargent. Ed., **Women and Revolution: A Discussion of the Unhappy Marriage of Marxism and Feminism**. Boston: South End Press 1981 ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/5 "2002-03-25T13:28:22Z")
Thank you for sharing this with us. \ I could read that quote, it’s written in Classic Persian! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/6 "2002-03-25T18:05:51Z")
Interesting, I know Fatemah Mernissi. Huh, how odd. I think I met her at an event about 7 years ago. Nice woman. A debate might be in regards to how well these women, coming from a fairly secular elite background are actually speaking a ‘discourse’ which will resonate, in situ. I have severe doubts on this. I also don’t care for some of the participants ‘patriarchy’ rhetoric (al-hibri, e.g.), however valid it is for the region. It doesn’t strike me as useful or truly relavatory. So, is this simply feel-good rhetoric of a marginalized socio-political movement in the Arab-Islamic world or does it have real effect? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-was-a-good-day-for-islamic-feminism-in-dc/99796/7 "2002-03-26T10:39:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > So, is this simply feel-good rhetoric of a marginalized socio-political movement in the Arab-Islamic world or does it have real effect? Well, I am sure you know the feminist undercurrents of the Islamic world better than that, at least historically! Yes, the source may be from a fairly secular and elite background, but (since you’re in Egypt) check out the work of Mahawab El-Mouelhy (also secular and elite), who has been striving tirelessly with/for the Egyptian government to change popular perceptions of women, especially rural (from female circumcision to being repeatedly impregnated for the sake of the sons she will bear a husband). She’s been at it for decades, and she does feels she has had an effect. But there’s a lot of work to do, as she always says.