# It wasn’t a coup **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 13, 2021, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407 "2021-01-13T05:29:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/582 "2021-01-26T22:51:00Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I think pendantic is when you hang on every word looking for something to nitpick. I thought that was what the coup-folk were planning on doing with Mike Pence. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/583 "2021-01-26T22:57:34Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > an excuse for the **legally appointed (not elected)** Hitler to seize more power. The bolded part isn’t by itself a feature of a coup. That is how prime ministers in many parliamentary systems come to power: being the leader of the larges party in the parliament, and legally appointed by the head of state. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/584 "2021-01-27T00:02:04Z")
Did not intend to imply otherwise. Pointing out that the German populace never actually elected him, he was able to leverage a appointment from the president int a dictatorship, one crisis and political machination at a time. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/585 "2021-01-27T03:40:15Z")
> **[McConnell: It Was Too Soon to Impeach Trump, Now It’s Too Late](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/mcconnell-trump-impeachment-insurrection-senate-trial-dismiss-former.html)** > > And there was a perfect moment, but they were on vacation. McConnell likely won’t vote to impeach, and I’m not convinced that too many other ‘outraged’ Republicans will, either. So, how much has really changed? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/586 "2021-01-27T03:44:45Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > McConnell likely won’t vote to impeach ? The impeachment has happened, hasn’t it? You mean that McConnell won’t vote to convict. All the more reason to hold the trial, examine the evidence, and let Republicans go on record as saying “nah, let it go”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/587 "2021-01-27T03:47:29Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Pointing out that the German populace never actually elected him, I just don’t understand the relevance of saying he was never elected by the people. That’s common in many parliamentary systems. What point are you trying to make ? I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/588 "2021-01-27T03:52:25Z")
I could be wrong, but I’m not sure that it matters - not sure what does. I mean, shit if Americans cannot unify and collectively agree that an armed insurrection on the Capitol was an unambiguous outrage… But why else would any Republican feel safe in opposing Trump’s conviction? It seems that a large chunk of this country really doesn’t see the assault as an outrage, or maybe they do but believe it’s a Deep State job. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/589 "2021-01-27T04:04:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That is how prime ministers in many parliamentary systems come to power: being the leader of the larges party in the parliament, and legally appointed by the head of state. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s common in many parliamentary systems. Is it though? In most parliamentary systems\* the prime minister and cabinet are selected from within parliament, right? Hitler was never a member of the German Parliament. He literally never won an election in which he ran (and he ran in several). I think that is unusual, but I could be wrong. \* My perception is mostly informed by current parliamentary systems. Perhaps they were different back then. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/590 "2021-01-27T04:10:27Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > But why else would any Republican feel safe in opposing Trump’s conviction? I’m not sure they do feel “safe” in opposing it. I think it’s probably just that they feel less safe in supporting it. They risk anger and possibly actual violence from the Trumpublican faction of their party, and political opposition and condemnation from radicalized Trumpublican state GOPs. But they can’t be sure that their toleration of Trump’s malfeasance won’t come back to bite them in some form: they just don’t know which way or when the cat will eventually jump. [Look how long it took for Congressional Republicans to repudiate Richard Nixon](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/it-took-a-long-time-for-republicans-to-abandon-nixon/), for example. Far better all around for today’s Congressional Republicans if they can just duck the issue by saying “whoops, POTUS out of office, nothing can be done about it even if something should have been done about it, too bad” and avoid having a trial altogether. That way they don’t have to go on record as standing up for Trump’s insurrectionism but they don’t have to go on record as opposing it, either. So Congress should go ahead and have the trial. The Pubs are not entitled to duck out of this, ardently as they may wish to. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/591 "2021-01-27T04:34:37Z")
There is a difference between Westminster systems (Canada, UK, etc) and Western European parliamentary systems. In Westminster systems, the 1st minister snd Cabinet ministers are members of Parliament. In some West European parliamentary systems, the 1st minister and Cabinet ministers are not members of the Parliament. I don’t know how it worked in Weimar Germany? But my point is that Hitler was originally appointed Chancellor by ordinary means, with the political legitimacy that came from leading the largest elected party in the Reichstag, although not a majority. The Chancellor has never been chosen by popular election, so I’m not sure what point **Strassia** is making? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/592 "2021-01-27T06:25:48Z")
My point is that it did not take a majority or even an election to get a dictator. It took a dedicated minority, a complacent majority, and a reactionary elite looking to take advantage of the popularity of someone they thought a fool. The German president appointed Hitler as bulwark against socialists and liberals. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/593 "2021-01-27T06:45:52Z")
Solid appraisal, and eerily close to what got us Trump in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/594 "2021-01-27T17:35:56Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > My point is that it did not take a majority or even an election to get a dictator. Except there were elections. In both the elections in 1932, the Nazis were the single largest party in the Reichstag, and Hitler was the leader of the party. That is one of the reasons Hindenberg appointed him as chancellor. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/595 "2021-01-27T17:44:34Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Certainly suspicious, but I’m guessing that many days that Congress is in session that you’d find people getting private tours. Heck, back in 1980 I got to meet Rudy Boschwitz, MN senator and had a (very) mini tour. The guy I was road-tripping with was the son of a small-town banker and that was all it took for a meeting. All tours were shut down for covid restrictions. Then magically there was a tour right before an invasion. > [@glee](#): > > Remember when Trump boasted in his election campaign “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody” and not “lose any voters.”? His voters just not only said, “Here, here,” but “Let me pull the trigger for you so you don’t strain yourself.” > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I didn’t feel I was evading the question. I just feel it wasn’t a coup attempt unless it had some remote possibility of success, which this did not. So if the invaders had gotten ahold of Mike Pence and hung him on the gallows out front, that wouldn’t have been a coup attempt because, in your eyes, that still wouldn’t have prevented the actual turnover of power to Biden? They marched on the Capitol with the intent of overthrowing the results of the election and installing their own candidate as the President. That they see themselves as the patriots and defenders of democracy and protecting the true will of the people from the rigged election is irrelevant. Their intent was to retain Trump as President by any means necessary. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But we shouldn’t call this a coup attempt because that creates the danger that we won’t be paying attention to genuine coup attempts that don’t look like this. No, we do need to be aware of other forms of coup attempt, like you mention. But your own argument defies your use of what the Republicans in Congress did from being a coup. Because the objectors to the certification of electors had no real ability to stop the results, only delay. So that couldn’t be a coup, either, because there was no ability to succeed. Or maybe your definition is wrong. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I tend to feel the opposite way. I feel if society elevates this riot by calling it a coup attempt, we increase the possibility that other groups will follow their example and try to stage their own coups. > > If we treat it like what it was, a terrorist attack, I feel we’re not giving other groups any false hopes that they can succeed in overthrowing the government this way. I agree it was a terrorist attack, but it was also a coup attempt, and denying that won’t prevent future groups from replicating the methods or improving them. We’ve already had an invasion of one state capitol building, and threats of repeating this in other states. Calling this a coup attempt does nothing to suggest to other groups they might be more effective next time if they try harder - they already feel that way _and_ it is true. Killing off a few Congresspeople or even just the Vice-President would do a lot to intimidate the rest of the legislators. I don’t think you can justify that it wouldn’t work. Once that level of violence occurs, how far away from open revolt is the country? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/596 "2021-01-27T18:28:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That is one of the reasons Hindenberg appointed him as chancellor. They really should have known that would go down in flames. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/597 "2021-01-27T18:35:56Z")
Sadly, a second police officer who was involved in responding to the coup has committed suicide. > **[Second DC police officer dies by suicide weeks after Capitol riots](https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/national/capitol-riots/police-officer-suicide-capitol-riots-dc/65-86963edd-11e8-4379-953b-fd58d57e59e2)** > > Officer Jeffrey Smith is one of two cops to die by suicide due to the aftermath of the riots at the US Capitol, Acting DC Police Chief Robert J. Contee said. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/598 "2021-01-27T23:00:35Z")
Suicide is rarely a good response to a problem. But when somebody does it, they _do_ have a reason in mind. Maybe not a good reason objectively, but one good / persuasive enough _to them_ to motivate them into action. Very drastic action. ISTM there are a bunch of different possible reasons / causes to commit suicide in this circumstance. Here’s the first few that came to my mind; there may be more: 1. I was supposed to stop this and I failed. I suck at my job. I’m such a loser. 2. Soon the investigation will uncover that I was part of the inside job. 3. Soon the investigation will uncover that I was active on far-right social media and they’ll suspect I was part of the inside job. But I wasn’t. I’m trapped. 4. Basic PTSD. I signed up to be a mostly ceremonial guard and I’m just not cut out for what became (briefly) a war. The things I saw/did haunt my every waking moment and fill my dreams. 5. America is doomed because of the leftists and I don’t want to live to see it. 6. America is doomed because of the rightists and I don’t want to live to see it. 7. It just looks like a suicide. _They_ did it. For various murky values of “they.” Do we / anyone have any idea what may have motivated either the earlier or the current suicide / “suicide”? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/599 "2021-01-27T23:50:12Z")
It’s not clear yet. Several Metro police (municipal police) have spoken out about the coup. The Capitol Police (a federal agency) has long had a problem with racism in its ranks. But remember that a black Capitol Police officer used his own body as bait to lure the white nationalists away from senators. Some MPD officers have alleged that security was intentionally reduced to allow the coup a better chance of success. MPD wasn’t called in until very late. > **[“No One Took Us Seriously”: Black Cops Warned About Racist Capitol Police...](https://www.propublica.org/article/no-one-took-us-seriously-black-cops-warned-about-racist-capitol-police-officers-for-years)** > > Allegations of racism against the Capitol Police are nothing new: Over 250 Black cops have sued the department since 2001. Some of those former officers now say it’s no surprise white nationalists were able to storm the building. > **['Kill him with his own gun' rioters chanted as a DC police officer fought for...](https://www.wusa9.com/article/features/producers-picks/dc-police-officer-describes-fighting-for-his-life-as-rioters-dragged-him/65-5405dfde-6c19-4c99-9160-e8a3d4173987)** > > Officer Mike Fanone describes for the first time publicly how he self-deployed to the Capitol on Jan. 6 to defend democracy. > **[DC police union speaks out about Capitol Hill riots - WTOP News](https://wtop.com/dc/2021/01/dc-police-union-speaks-out-about-capitol-hill-riots/)** > > The D.C. Police Union is out with a statement concerning the events inside the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/600 "2021-01-28T00:05:04Z")
What these officers experienced was firsthand trauma. They were outnumbered by a mob, which included fellow police officers. It was a mob that vastly outnumbered and overpowered them. They were met with brutal violence, physically assaulted and verbally accosted. One of their officers was killed by the mob, and others were injured. I could see how maybe they came to the conclusion that they let their team down. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/QVZvp-Dv0gg/maxresdefault.jpg "Police Officer Crushed in Door During US Capitol Insurrection") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVZvp-Dv0gg) Beyond that, imagine that your one job is to protect the Capitol and you fail miserably. You fail so badly that the legislative chambers are overtaken by men in military uniforms and shaman outfits. You fail so badly that the very people you’re there to protect were potentially close to being murdered, potentially disrupting the government. This is an incident that won’t soon be forgotten, and what could have and should have been done will be Monday morning QB’d for the next several months, if not years. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/601 "2021-01-28T00:05:46Z")
Missed the edit, but one of the police suicides was from Capitol Police and the second was from MPD. MPD also had 65 injuries during the coup including the officer who was beaten with an American flag pole while people screamed “kill him with his own gun.” > **['Kill him with his own gun': Police describe facing the mob at the Capitol](https://www.wcvb.com/article/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-police-describe-facing-the-mob-at-the-capitol/35220563)** > > "People are going to be shocked by some of the egregious contact that happened in the Capitol," acting U.S. Attorney Michael Sherwin said Tuesday in reference to attacks on police officers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407.md?page=31)