# It wasn’t a coup **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 13, 2021, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407 "2021-01-13T05:29:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/121 "2021-01-13T21:07:00Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > regardless of how idiotic their basic plan was or how unlikely it was to succeed I think the fact that the sitting President was encouraging the attack and spent weeks fighting to remain in power after losing the election gives this attack more street cred than a random douchebag mailing letter bombs. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/122 "2021-01-13T21:07:55Z")
Consider, too, the conversation that reportedly took place between Pence and Trump – that he can be a “patriot” or a “pussy.” Consider the words of Trump when he spoke before the mob: you’ve got to fight like hell or you’re going to lose your country. Consider what the mob actually did: they assaulted police officers, physically disrupted House and Senate chambers as they were doing business. They entered the halls of congress with zip ties and weapons, presumably with the intent to take some individuals hostage. They invaded the office of the Speaker. Last, consider the timing: this was timed specifically to disrupt the final step in recognizing the results of the election. Would this could have succeeded, even had they succeeded in taking some members hostage and had mock “trials” (and done God knows what else)? Probably not, but let’s suppose that the president invokes the insurrection act and all of the enormous powers he has under the Constitution as members of congress or either missing, harmed, or dead. Still far fetched, still not likely to succeed, but that doesn’t matter. The intent was to disrupt the transition of power with the clear purpose of somehow finding a way to extend the tenure of the current president. It doesn’t matter that this was a stupid, outrageous plot with little chance of succeeding. The point is, they tried. That is an attempted coup. We can laugh now and call it the stupid coup, but they tried. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/123 "2021-01-13T21:08:55Z")
Of course it was a coup attempt, just like the one we had [in Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Spanish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt) in 1981. Look at the pictures. Listen to the perpetrators. An attempt which, fortunately, also failed and was also comically inept, at least in part, but a coup attempt nonetheless. Thank your personal Godott for tanTrump’s stupidity and inability to plan, next time you might not be so lucky. The more you think you are safe now, the bigger the danger in future. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/124 "2021-01-13T21:11:05Z")
I think we’ve acknowledged that it wasn’t a successful coup, but a coup attempt. I assume that the OP’s point was to suggest that this wasn’t really a coup attempt, that this was just a redneck romp through the Rotunda. There was a lot of stupidity on display, but stupidity can still do a lot of damage and should be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/125 "2021-01-13T21:13:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’ve been living through forty years of conservatives trying to redefine reality. We need to stop letting them define reality and forcing the rest of us to accept their terms. We need to drag them back into the real world. And, for some reason, you’re trying to help them. Notice how the only other people in this thread trying to say it wasn’t a coup attempt are the more consersative/Republicans? Which side was it that freaked out when they were treated like terrorists and not allowed on planes? Which side is it that wants us to not punish these people or impeach Trump because it wasn’t all that bad? It’s the Republicans and Trumpists who are trying to downplay it by saying it wasn’t a coup. We call it a coup attempt because it fits the definition. You say it’s not because you don’t want it to be. You’re the one denying reality, ignoring what all the experts say. You’re the one trying to make it seem not as bad, which would result in less punishment. You’re the one spreading the narrative that Trump supporters are pushing. Well, the one where they accept that it wasn’t Antifa who did it. You’d be right at home with the BLM vs Capitol coup memes where they say that BLM was worse. You really need to back off helping the Trump side downplay their crimes. I get why it happens, as we all don’t want it to be true. But it is, and you need to accept that. The US faced a coup attempt, and we need to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Next time, they might be competent. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/126 "2021-01-13T21:17:23Z")
I just find amusing the concept that you can’t attempt something you have no way of succeeding at. If someone with a terrible singing voice joins a talent show, that wasn’t an attempt to win. Because they had no chance to win. It doesn’t matter that they were officially entered into the competition, that they sang with the best effort in their cracking, off-key voice, or that they had every intention of winning. Since they couldn’t do it, they didn’t attempt it. This is just ignorant. > **[Definition of ATTEMPT](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attempt)** > > to make an effort to do, accomplish, solve, or effect; tempt; to try to subdue or take by force : attack… See the full definition In the English language, there is no implication that an attempt has a chance to succeed. If you try to do something, if you have the intent to do something, if you go through the motions of doing it, you’ve attempted it regardless of how realistic your attempt is. If someone tried to shoot someone through a bullet-proof window using a low caliber weapon, I guarantee you that would be an attempted murder charge despite the zero chance of success. This is a moronic argument. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/127 "2021-01-13T21:18:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Go back to 9/11. Terrorists crashed planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. Was that a coup attempt? Suppose the fourth plane had crashed into the Capitol building. Would that have been a coup attempt? Suppose they had a fifth and sixth plane and had crashed those into the White House and the Supreme Court. Would that have been a coup attempt? Intent matters. The terrorists were not trying to overthrow our government. The people assaulting our Capitol last week were. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Were the rioters going to hold Congress hostage and threaten to kill one every hour until the states sent a second set of electoral votes in? I suspect that was the plan of at least some of them. They _were_ prepared to take hostages. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A coup would be a change in the government obtained by illegal means. Yes, that’s what they were going for. They did not succeed, therefore, it was an attempted coup. By your definition, it seems there can never be an attempted coup, as it couldn’t be a coup unless it succeeds. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/128 "2021-01-13T21:19:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But none of that makes it NOT a coup, it just makes it one that was flawed conceptually and executed idiotically. Suppose I owned a gun. And suppose I took my gun and went down to my local Burger King and took everyone inside hostage. And I said I was going to kill my hostages unless I was named President of the United States. Would that be a coup attempt? I’m trying to become President. Suppose the hostage negotiator told me that Congress had come through and made me President. So I release my hostages, put down my gun, and walk out the door. Would that promise I was given that was President still be binding even though I had obtained it through illegal means? Would I in fact be President of the United States? What happens a week later when some other guy follows my example? Would he replace me as President? What happens if the rioters last week had a different agenda? Let’s suppose they took over the Capitol and managed to take the members of Congress hostage. And then they held an impeachment trial. By pointing guns at their hostages, they managed to get a two thirds majority to vote for Trump’s impeachment. Then the rioters released their hostages and turned themselves in. Do you feel that impeachment would have stood? It would have been regarded as a valid impeachment and Trump was removed from office, regardless of the means used to obtain it? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/129 "2021-01-13T21:19:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I disagree. We shouldn’t let the crazy people decide what things are. They would probably tell you they’re all patriots, so should we call them that? > > > > We shouldn’t let people like this impose their false reality on the rest of us. These people are not patriots and what they did was not a coup attempt, even if they believe these things. > > I would agree that it wasn’t a successful coup, but it was most definitely an attempted coup. Definition of coup: “a sudden, violent and illegal seizure of power from a government”. This was not an attempted coup. By the way, “Stop The Steal” which dates back to Roger Stone in 2016 is a term that applies to a loose agglomeration of extremist dingbats of which Ali Alexander is just one claimed “leader”. As a Wikipedia article notes: “Several “Stop the Steal” groups were founded by right-wing extremists[[68]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_election_conspiracy_theory#cite_note-mjones-68) after Trump published tweets on [Twitter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter) encouraging his supporters to “Stop the Count”.[[82]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_election_conspiracy_theory#cite_note-82) Since then, many of these unorganized “Stop the Steal” groups have started protesting in several U.S. cities” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/130 "2021-01-13T21:25:18Z")
If your burger king was full of legislators in the middle of counting the votes for the next president, then yeah. Otherwise, not really. So, you are correct that more than just intent matters, the target matters as well. Good point, but it doesn’t bolster your argument that this wasn’t a coup attempt. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/131 "2021-01-13T21:26:21Z")
You provided a definition of a coup and then said it wasn’t an attempted coup, despite the fact it was violent, illegal, and by all accounts, an attempt to interfere with the transition of presidential power. I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. You’re free to characterize a coup attempt however you wish I guess, but whatever you want to call it, it was politically disruptive, and it’s dangerous to minimize it or reduce its severity by getting into semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/132 "2021-01-13T21:26:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You’re the one trying to make it seem not as bad, which would result in less punishment. > > You’re the one spreading the narrative that Trump supporters are pushing. > > You really need to back off helping the Trump side downplay their crimes. I’ve said these people should be treated like terrorists and locked up for the rest of their lives. Is that what conservatives are saying? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/133 "2021-01-13T21:27:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Definition of coup: “a sudden, violent and illegal seizure of power from a government”. > > This was not an attempted coup. What part of that definition doesn’t apply to what we saw on the 6th? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/134 "2021-01-13T21:30:25Z")
I think Jackmannii is confused and thought he was posting on Facebook with that ill-reasoned post. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/135 "2021-01-13T21:40:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Go back to 9/11. Terrorists crashed planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. Was that a coup attempt? Suppose the fourth plane had crashed into the Capitol building. Would that have been a coup attempt? Suppose they had a fifth and sixth plane and had crashed those into the White House and the Supreme Court. Would that have been a coup attempt? The 9/11 terrorists didn’t highjack and crash planes at the explicit direction of the president or anyone else trying to overthrow the existing administration to replace it. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Obama faced endless opprobrium and vitriol for saying “if you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan” and for [wearing a tan suit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama_tan_suit_controversy). Ah, the [Tan Suit Affair](https://youtu.be/WrTf6CaTTc0). A fashion choice that brought the USA to the brink of disintegration. However, it pales in comparison to the [Latte Salute Controversy](https://youtu.be/ool3zz_ws60). And yet, in an entire eight years of office, Obama never once energized his base enough to try to kidnap a state governor or sack the US Capitol Building. Sad! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/136 "2021-01-13T21:41:13Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And yet, in an entire eight years of office, Obama never once energized his base enough to try to kidnap a state governor or sack the US Capitol Building. Sad! Liberals just aren’t patriotic enough to try to overthrow their government. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/137 "2021-01-13T21:43:07Z")
Remember, our government is more than just one person. Maybe they couldn’t have kept Trump in power, no matter what they had done… but they were very close to being able to murder Senators and Representatives, and if they had done that, they could very easily flipped control of both houses of congress for at least the next two years. Does it cease to be a coup if they only manage to violently take over part of the government? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/138 "2021-01-13T21:55:03Z")
Man, Little Nemo and Jackmannii are digging their reputations into the ground at a furious pace in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/139 "2021-01-13T21:58:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I just find amusing the concept that you can’t attempt something you have no way of succeeding at… > > This is a moronic argument. I mean, _theoretically_ it’s not totally moronic. Of course something _could_ be so laughably implausible, so isolated and inconsequential and harmless that for all practical purposes we don’t treat it as an attempt, we treat the “perpetrators” as deluded and just laugh at them, or set up a psych eval. What is moronic is asserting that _this_ falls remotely into that category. Ignoring what the Republican Party has been building to for decades, what Trump has been building to for 4 years, what’s going on in Congress, the collusion and conspiracy, what happened with security standing down. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407/140 "2021-01-13T22:12:57Z")
Also as of March 12, 2020: “The Senate sergeant-at-arms announced Thursday that the Capitol Visitor Center will be closed to all tours, including those led by members and staff. The Capitol building itself will also be closed to all tours.” > **[Coronavirus closes Capitol to tours - Roll Call](https://rollcall.com/2020/03/12/coronavirus-closes-capitol-to-tours/)** > > Senate sergent-at-arms announces Capitol Visitor Center and the Capitol building itself will be closed to all tours through the end of March. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasn-t-a-coup/930407.md?page=8)