# It wasn't racially motivated unless your race is "dumb" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592 "2005-12-29T17:18:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/141 "2005-12-31T21:06:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Why should someone’s social background, sexual affiliation, etc. entitle them to special treatment because their attackers are different from them? My quote does not prove your assertion that: > [@](#): > > You claimed, over and over, that any crime committed by a person against someone of a different race was a hate crime. You suggested that all it took was to attack someone with a different skin color, and it automatically counted as a hate crime. Where in my quote did I say anything about any crime, I am talking about crimes that are prosecuted as hate crimes. > [@](#): > > Well the next time I kill someone i’ll make sure they’re the same race as me as clearly someone of a different race’s life is worth more. Ok let me add a few details, When my 20 racist friends and I go kill a black man in the neighborhood, with ambiguity as to whether it was an attempt to scare the other black people in the neighborhood, we will receive a harsher penalty because it is a hate crime, because according to your views it has consequences beyond that, it terrorizes other black people. But any crime has such consequences, if we just murdered another white guy, would that not terrorize other people in the neighborhood as well? Why does one require harsher punishment? > [@](#): > > Except we’re talking about cases that don’t involve inciting mob violence or explicitly making terrorist threats. Hmm maybe you were not but I was thats why it was **my** example. > [@](#): > > They need to have a stiffer sentence if they are trying to frighten an entire group of people. How the fuck many times do I have to explain this to you? Yeah they need an additional charge of terroristic threats. How many times do I have to explain that to you? Hate Crime legislation is not needed. > [@](#): > > There are not criminal statutes in existence other than hate crime legislation - no matter what you claim - that properly deal with instances in which criminals decide to make an example out of someone. This is your opinion and not a fact that can be stated with any certainty. > [@](#): > > That’s why they’re on the books. Yeah because any and all laws on the boos are good ones. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > This case has nothing to do with hate crime laws. And yet some people in this thread have claimed that it is a hate crime and was racially motivated. > [@](#): > > Any law on the books “opens the door to charging people with . . . crimes in situations which they don’t apply”. True, however hate crime legislation is completely unnecessary and at odds with the 14th Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/142 "2005-12-31T21:08:11Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > The fact that this case is not a good example of a hate crime is perfectly okay, because _no one has tried to claim that this is a hate crime_ except for folks like you and **Q.E.D.** who are trying to use a case that is _not_ a hate crime as evidence that hate crime laws are bad. Are you just being deliberately obstinate to avoid admitting you were wrong about your characterization of my post or are you just genuinely this stupid? This is almost the _exact_ opposite of what I said. Let me break this down for you: > [@You](#): > > The fact that this case is not a good example of a hate crime is perfectly okay, because _no one has tried to claim that this is a hate crime_ except for folks like you and **Q.E.D.** … No, sir. I said it should NOT be characterized as a hate crime: > [@Me](#): > > It’s possible that his anger was greater because the clerk was black, and that the assault was more violent than it would have if the clerk was white. But is this really germane? In either case, the crime was the result of one person pissing off another, and getting attacked for it. Does it really matter in this case why the man was as pissed off as he was? **I don’t think so.** Only a liar or a fool could possibly claim that I was calling this act a hate crime. Which are you? > [@You](#): > > …trying to use a case that is _not_ a hate crime as evidence that hate crime laws are bad. Uh, no. If you’re going to build a strawman, at least dress it like me. This is what I actually said: > [@Me](#): > > I think the classification of “hate crime” can be useful in its intended role, but it is far too overused to be meaningful anymore, IMO. In no way, shape or form does say that hate crime laws are bad. To the contrary, it says they are a _good_ thing, when _applied properly_. Trying to twist this into making the claim that I am calling hate crime laws bad is disingenous and intellectually dishonest. I called you out on this bullshit in a previous post, as well. I’m still waiting for you to address _that_ one. You’re so worked up about attacking me for whatever reason that it’s completely escaped your attention that we are essentially taking _the same position_ with some minor differences, and it’s making you look really stupid. Wipe the froth off your chin, actually _read_ my post and then get back to me when you’re prepared to be reasonable and admit you screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/143 "2005-12-31T23:23:03Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **Miller.** You keep equating racism with hate crimes. But it’s not so. Hate crimes are violent crimes motivated by any ethnic, religious, or sexual orientation prejudice, not just out-and-out-racist inclinations. Where have I equated racism with hate crimes? I’ve been arguing exactly the opposite: that a crime may have an element of racism (or any other bigotry you care to name) and still not be a hate crime. I think the definition of hate crime should be _narrower_ than how it’s currently used. > [@](#): > > Colin Ferguseon repeatedly indicted himself by saying he was shooting those commuters because they were white and he felt opppressed by white people. It’s pretty cut and dried, and it wasn’t random. But it was also the act of a mentally unstable man. I guess that still makes it a hate crime, but I don’t think he should have been tried for it. I don’t think he should have been tried for any of the murders: he should have been put in an institution and spent the rest of his life doped to the eyeballs. He was too crazy to be responsible for his actions, _or_ his beliefs, including the racist ones. > [@](#): > > Just like Bernie Goetz actions against those black muggers was a hate crime. An understandable hate crime, evidentally a sympathetic and forgiveable hate crime (I’m not shedding any tears), but a hate crime nonetheless. I don’t enough about Goetz to debate him in this context, but I’d argue that a hate crime ought not to be sympathetic or forgivable by its nature. If it is, maybe it isn’t really a hate crime you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/144 "2006-01-01T00:48:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Where have I equated racism with hate crimes? I’ve been arguing exactly the opposite: that a crime may have an element of racism (or any other bigotry you care to name) and still not be a hate crime. I think the definition of hate crime should be _narrower_ than how it’s currently used. By wanting to narrow the focus of hate crimes you are de facto equating hate crimes as racist acts only. That’s not currently how its written or intended. Any egregious act of violent prejudice by anyone against anyone in certain protected social groups qualifies. > [@Miller](#): > > But it was also the act of a mentally unstable man. I guess that still makes it a hate crime, but I don’t think he should have been tried for it. I don’t think he should have been tried for any of the murders: he should have been put in an institution and spent the rest of his life doped to the eyeballs. He was too crazy to be responsible for his actions, _or_ his beliefs, including the racist ones. Colin Ferguson was a red-blooded bigot who may well have been mentally unstable… but he was sane. Sometimes “crazy” means “he knows exactly what the fuck he’s doing is absolutely ill-advised and wrong, but he doesn’t give a shit.” [Miller=quote]I don’t enough about Goetz to debate him in this context, but I’d argue that a hate crime ought not to be sympathetic or forgivable by its nature. If it is, maybe it isn’t really a hate crime you’re talking about. [/QUOTE] Possibly. But what may be considered a hate crime is often flexible depending on the passions of the community. They’re plenty of people who thought the rioters who pulled Reginald Denny out of his truck on the corner of Florence and Noamandie deserved sympathy and forgiveness, including Denny himself. Objectively I say it’s a hate crime. But sympathy and forgiveness are weird emotions anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/145 "2006-01-01T19:39:46Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Now, **pool** , until you can rationally address the points I’ve made here, and stop making strawman claims about what hate crime laws are, we will not discuss this matter further. You clearly have no response to the arguments I’ve made, because you haven’t addressed them at all and continue to raise points that have already been refuted. Y’know, I just caught this part–must have overlooked it before. This is goddamn hilarious, considering this is _exactly_ what you’ve been doing with me. You can either refute my points concerning your baseless attack on my post, or you can admit you were wrong. Ball’s in your court, pal. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/146 "2006-01-02T16:19:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Spray RAID all over your salad and let me know how you feel in the morning. I’ll feel perfectly fucking fine, thank you very much, **because I’m not going to eat a salad that tastes like RAID**. The WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME of this scenario is that a bag of food is ruined. Not that puppydogs are poisoned by the dozens, not that dear old grandma asphyxiates on RAID-soaked bagels, not that the psycho will clutch his throat and keel over while munching on chips. The worst case is that they get home, discover that the bag of food **smells like RAID** , and return it to the store to get a refund. Y’all are aware that insecticides smell awful and don’t taste like a nummy treat, right? > [@mswas](#): > > Anyway, he wasn’t hurt, so it’s all good. > > Erek I love this. You’re extremely worried that a can might puncture and contaminate your food, causing grievous injury–but when someone gets sprayed in the face with insecticide, the dude’s not hurt? He wasn’t permanently blinded, sure. But I guarantee he got a higher dose of insecticide than anyone is ever going to get from a can leaking in a bag. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/147 "2006-01-02T16:46:15Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > You realize “whitey” is about twenty-five years out of date, right? 😃 Out of interest, what’s the latest? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/148 "2006-01-02T17:00:55Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Out of interest, what’s the latest? Cracker? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/149 "2006-01-02T17:26:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It amazes me that people can’t understand how screaming a racial epithet doesn’t necessarily make someone racist. This reminds me of the line in _Robocop_ where the lawyer and bail bondsman are trying to get their client out of jail. “It’s just murder. It’s not like he killed anyone.” ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/150 "2006-01-02T17:30:11Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Out of interest, what’s the latest? Sure you want to know? Nothing. Despite the UL that blacks are especially racist against whites, it’s obvious that the slur game doesn’t go both ways. This fact was explored decades ago in the famous SNL sketch with Chevy Chase exchanging racist epithets with Richard Pryor - Pryor’s character ran out of slurs long before Chase did. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/151 "2006-01-02T17:36:18Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > This fact was explored decades ago in the famous SNL sketch with Chevy Chase exchanging racist epithets with Richard Pryor - Pryor’s character ran out of slurs long before Chase did.[/SPOILER] What? [No he didn’t](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml)! He repeated “honky” three times, emphasizing it more with each repetition, but at most he ran out of insults two before Chase did. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/152 "2006-01-02T17:39:29Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What? [No he didn’t](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml)! He repeated “honky” three times, emphasizing it more with each repetition, but at most he ran out of insults two before Chase did. > > Daniel Fine. Just, “before” then. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/153 "2006-01-02T17:41:09Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Fine. Just, “before” then. …which makes it obvious that the slur game DOES go both ways, doesn’t it? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/154 "2006-01-02T18:19:50Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > …which makes it obvious that the slur game DOES go both ways, doesn’t it? > > Daniel No, because the present answer still is “nothing”. That and theoretically, Chase never ran out of slurs, he just stopped for the sake of a short sketch (there’re plenty I can think of that he never mentioned), while Pryor definitely did run out. Since Pryor had to repeat “honky” thrice while Chase still had some in reserve was enough to justify “long” IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/155 "2006-01-02T18:22:32Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > No, because the present answer still is “nothing”. That and theoretically, Chase never ran out of slurs, he just stopped for the sake of a short sketch (there’re plenty I can think of that he never mentioned), while Pryor definitely did run out. Since Pryor had to repeat “honky” thrice while Chase still had some in reserve was enough to justify “long” IMO. Theoretically? Man, it was **fiction**! You can’t be seriously citing it as a definitive list of racial epithets, can you? I mean, I’m a pasty-faced Wonderbread hick of a Mick, so maybe that’s why I can think of a few that Pryor didn’t use, but even if Pryor ran out, it was serendipitous: the repitition of honkey in the way he said it made the skit hysterically funny, in a way that it wouldn’t have been funny if he’d just kept on with new slurs. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/156 "2006-01-02T18:24:51Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > No, because the present answer still is “nothing”. Are you trying to tell us that there is NO currently-used racial slur that blacks use for white people? That’s just absurd. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/157 "2006-01-02T18:32:33Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Are you trying to tell us that there is NO currently-used racial slur that blacks use for white people? That’s just absurd. Why?! I don’t know everything, but I’ve heard (and read on messageboards) blacks saying anti-white things, but I’ve never heard any slurs. OTOH, I’ve heard a variety of anti-black slurs coming from whites in my adult life, including brand new ones (“golfer” anyone?). If you know of any anti-white slurs in current use then why don’t you tell us what they are? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/158 "2006-01-02T18:50:00Z")
You’ve never heard the word _cracker_? Or _whitebread_? And _white boy_, while tame, is still pretty popular. There’s also the less common _peckerwood_. I find that one amusing, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/159 "2006-01-02T21:08:42Z")
> [@Left Hand Of Dorkness](#): > > Theoretically? Man, it was fiction! You can’t be seriously citing it as a definitive list of racial epithets, can you? I mean, I’m a pasty-faced Wonderbread hick of a Mick, so maybe that’s why I can think of a few that Pryor didn’t use, but even if Pryor ran out, it was serendipitous: the repitition of honkey in the way he said it made the skit hysterically funny, in a way that it wouldn’t have been funny if he’d just kept on with new slurs. > [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Are you trying to tell us that there is NO currently-used racial slur that blacks use for white people? That’s just absurd. You’ve never heard the word _cracker_? Or _whitebread_? And _white boy_, while tame, is still pretty popular. There’s also the less common _peckerwood_. I find that one amusing, actually. If you won’t accept Pryor’s list as definitive, what about [“Colored Spade”](http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/hair/coloredspade.htm) from the musical “Hair?” Namecalling invective by blacks towards whites has always been limited. Seriously. Bigots are endlessly inventive when it comes to dehumanizing people with names, particularly bigots who’re white racists. Pryor knows this as well as the black members of the audience. One of the reasons the skit was so funny it that it works on two levels: the desperate repetition of “honky” is funny in an of itself, as **Dorkness** said, and that black people in the audience knew damn well Pryor was pretty much running out of names. He already used “redneck,” “ofay,” “peckerwood,” “cracker” and “white trash” in the skit. What else in popular black 70s culture was there? “White boy” wasn’t widely used until the early 1980s. “Whitebread” simply isn’t an epithet. Granted, there’s “White devils” by the Black Muslims, but that one never went far outside the Nation Of Islam. I agree with **pizzabrat.** For all the animosity and discrimination, African-Americans have never produced many derogatory terms for white people. Possibly the bitterest, most invective-packed terms are “white folks” followed closely by “The White Man.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592/160 "2006-01-02T21:18:29Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Possibly the bitterest, most invective-packed terms are “white folks” Really? Huh: that’s my preferred term for talking about race. There’s white folk and black folk and other folk; the word “folk” makes the term sound **non** -bitter to my ear. If you’re saying that white bigots came up with more obnoxious epithets, I can certainly agree with that. But **pizzabrat’s** claim was a lot more, well, black-and-white than what you seem to be saying. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-wasnt-racially-motivated-unless-your-race-is-dumb/337592.md?page=9)