# It will take the libertarian movement a long time to live down the Paul campaign **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 13, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715 "2012-02-13T16:09:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/41 "2012-02-14T15:27:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Crimes: More free market Muppet than man, Paul’s libertarianism is a deeply schizophrenic ideology wherein personal freedom trumps everything — especially personal freedom. Whether it’s regulating women’s uteri under the pretense of “state’s right” This writer earns no respect off the bat for idiocy or demagoguery. Unless he is oblivious to Ron Paul’s position on the issue, he would understand that Paul sees the fetus as living from conception, therefore entitled to rights from conception. My guess is that the writer understands the nuances of the issue but thought it would be more likely to be linked to on liberal message boards if he demagogued the issue. > [@](#): > > defending sexual harassers, or hypothetically voting against the Civil Rights Act, Paul’s positions display bewildering lack of intellectual coherence Not seeing the connection. Now I’m starting to think the writer maybe doesn’t really understand the reasoning behind Paul’s positions. He just vomits Paul’s more controversial ideas into the blurb and prays for that coveted SDMB link. > [@](#): > > Most grating (aside from his horrifically racist and homophobic eponymous newsletter Horrific? Boilerplate right-wing populism is horrific now? This is worth mentioning in blurb this short? > [@](#): > > or that he’s a doctor who doesn’t understand evolution), Paul on evolution: “My personal view is that recognizing the validity of an evolutionary process does not support atheism nor should it diminish one’s view about God and the universe.” Regarding a debate when the candidates were asked to raise their hands if they “believed in evolution”: “At the time, my first impression was that this sounded like a third-grade class exercise. I interpreted raising one’s hand as an all-or-nothing answer and as an insult and didn’t bother to answer the question, nor was I called upon to discuss my views.” I wonder if the writer has access to google? > [@](#): > > he’s managed to posture as an economic populist, Posture? This word was picked because of it’s negative connotation, but it doesn’t apply. > [@](#): > > despite the fact that his Randroid quest to eliminate government is the stuff of which oligarchies are made. Isn’t oligarchy kinda the problem left liberals are complaining about now. Y’know the whole 1% thing. The truth is pure free markets have never trended towards oligarchy. > [@](#): > > But he would, like, totally legalize weed, dude. … and quell drug cartel related violence in southwestern U.S. and Mexico, dude. See I’m typing like a weed head. I’m so hip. > [@](#): > > Smoking Gun: “The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers.” from [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#United_States_of_America) > [@](#): > > The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution explicitly forbids the federal government from enacting any law respecting a religious establishment, and thus forbids either designating an official church for the United States, or interfering with State and local official churches — which were common when the First Amendment was enacted. It did not prevent state governments from establishing official churches. Connecticut continued to do so until it replaced its colonial Charter with the Connecticut Constitution of 1818; Massachusetts retained an establishment of religion in general until 1833.[4] As of 2010, Article III of the Massachusetts constitution still provided, “… the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.”[5] > [@](#): > > Sentence: Separated indefinitely from “The Precious.” If you’re gonna steal a joke go with Colbert’s Rumplestiltskin joint. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/42 "2012-02-14T15:46:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Not seeing the connection. Yes, you do, you posted in [this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=637139) you have no excuses. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/43 "2012-02-14T15:47:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The truth is pure free markets have never trended towards oligarchy. Nor towards anything else, because they have never existed. But systems **approaching** free markets **do** trend towards oligarchy, **as you know.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/44 "2012-02-14T15:49:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Posture? This word was picked because of it’s negative connotation, but it doesn’t apply. 😕 **Of course** the word “posture” applies to Ron Paul or any libertarian claiming the mantle of economic populism. Unless you think goldbuggery and “No More Fed!” counts as economic populism. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/45 "2012-02-14T15:52:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nor towards anything else, because they have never existed. But systems **approaching** free markets **do** trend towards oligarchy, as you know. No. Systems that approach socialism trend toward oligarchy. Look at the U.S. Industries with more government oversight are more monopolistic. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/46 "2012-02-14T15:56:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, you do, you posted in [this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=637139) you have no excuses. How does he display a “bewildering lack of intellectual coherence” on the civil rights issue? It is the libertarian position. You can argue that it doesn’t work but it is definitely coherent to everyone but the author of the piece. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/47 "2012-02-14T15:58:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 **Of course** the word “posture” applies to Ron Paul or any libertarian claiming the mantle of economic populism. Unless you think goldbuggery and “No More Fed!” counts as economic populism. :rolleyes: Campaigning against the Federal Reserve is most definitely populist. I guess Andrew Jackson wasn’t a populist either? lol ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/48 "2012-02-14T16:04:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How does he display a “bewildering lack of intellectual coherence” on the civil rights issue? It is the libertarian position. You can argue that it doesn’t work but it is definitely coherent to everyone but the author of the piece. For **BG** , his thread is his cite. He’s pulled that any number of times around here, and even gotten himself Pitted for doing so. As for the statement that the Libertarian position on the Civil Rights Act lacks intellectual coherence, that’s just nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/49 "2012-02-14T16:15:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I guess Andrew Jackson wasn’t a populist either? lol Sure **that’s** a name ya wanna drop? Comparison to Jackson **ought** to be vote-poison to any American pol (not confident it is, but it should be). ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/50 "2012-02-14T16:19:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sure **that’s** a name ya wanna drop? Comparison to Jackson **ought** to be vote-poison to any American pol (not confident it is, but it should be). Yes because another of Paul’s positions that is widely criticized is his support of Native American genocide. IMO comparison to Woodrow Wilson should be vote-poison, and I’m sure Obama would love to have that. Different strokes i guess. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/51 "2012-02-14T16:21:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No. Systems that approach socialism trend toward oligarchy. Look at the U.S. 😕 Now you are talking about the country that more nearly approaches the free-market ideal than **any other industrialized democracy on Earth.** It is capitalism, not socialism, that creates and preserves America’s oligarchy. And what is it, do you think, that gives Europeans more socioeconomic mobility than Americans have got now? Not capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/52 "2012-02-14T16:37:32Z")
If you consider the last nominee from the LP was Bob Barr, Ron Paul looks rather moderate. Perspective is everything in politics. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/53 "2012-02-14T16:43:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Are they not even-handed? Libertarianism is gaining favor among younger voters in this election season. Do you consider that demographic to be more racist than average? My statement was that libertarians would shrug off accusations of racism. This is true regardless of whether they actively espouse racism itself. I don’t know the personal opinions of young libertarians as a group and I suspect nobody else does either. The question is whether I need to. Libertarianism is anti-government intervention. That includes social programs, many of which came into existence to protect the groups that have historically been marginalized by society. As a group, libertarians strongly resemble the dominant social caste. They are overwhelmingly more male, white, and well-to-do than the average. Libertarian ideology is inherently systemically racist, whatever individuals might think about other individuals. This is not inherent in the group demographics: libertarian demographics are similar to liberal demographics, [according to Pew](http://www.quora.com/Are-there-poor-Libertarians), although women are far more likely to be liberal. Yet liberals support these social programs for people who do not look like them. Libertarians are against those programs and generally are in support of programs that overwhelmingly benefit their own group. That’s the very definition of institutional racism. It’s a terrible political stance in a country that will be majority minority in a generation. Libertarians may think they have a future. But their values put them into the fringe of what America really looks like. If you don’t like libertarianism in the first place, this is a good thing. If you do, it’s hard to see a future of anything other than vocal frustration. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/54 "2012-02-14T16:45:24Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > If you consider the last nominee from the LP was Bob Barr, Ron Paul looks rather moderate. Sure, if he were running as the LP candidate. But by GOP standards – even current standards, as debased by post-Goldwater movement conservatism, and further debased by W-Cheney, and still further and irredeemably debased by the Tea Party – Paul is a whackaloon. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/55 "2012-02-14T16:52:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Now you are talking about the country that more nearly approaches the free-market ideal than **any other industrialized democracy on Earth.** It is capitalism, not socialism, that creates and preserves America’s oligarchy. And what is it, do you think, that gives Europeans more socioeconomic mobility than Americans have got now? Not capitalism. [I don’t believe that.](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/11/income-mobility-is-high-and-increasing.html) The oligarchy in the U.S. works hand in hand with government. The banking industry is the best example. Who do you think writes the regulations? Who’s interest do they have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/56 "2012-02-14T16:53:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The oligarchy in the U.S. works hand in hand with government. That is not a libertarian insight, that is a Marxist insight. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/57 "2012-02-14T17:04:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Yet liberals support these social programs for people who do not look like them. Whites are the benificiaries of more government aid than blacks. Do you think white libertarians favor aid for whites? If so, do you need a stool to get down from that awfully high horse you seem to be sitting on? You must not be in contact with many racists in the real world. Racists do not search out an ideology so they can deny aids to blacks. You are giving them too much credit. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/58 "2012-02-14T17:07:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is not a libertarian insight, that is a Marxist insight. Socialism creates these partnerships between industry and state. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/59 "2012-02-14T17:11:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Socialism creates these partnerships between industry and state. Actually, no, such predate even the idea of socialism. **Capitalism** creates them. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715/60 "2012-02-14T17:43:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, no, such predate even the idea of socialism. **Capitalism** creates them. So, for example, railroad subsidies were not an example of socialist ideas that predated the term socialism? That is most certainly not capitalism. Corruption and crony capitalism cannot exist in a libertarian free market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/it-will-take-the-libertarian-movement-a-long-time-to-live-down-the-paul-campaign/612715.md?page=4)