# Italian city names in English that are not from French **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143 "2006-02-05T21:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/1 "2006-02-05T21:21:38Z")
The [Torino](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357221) thread got me thinking… All the major Italian city names seem to have come into Enlgish from French: Rome, Florence, Turin, Venice\*, Naples, etc. Are there any English names for Italian cities that clearly did not come into English from French? \*Spelled with an “s” in French, but still obvioulsy French in origin ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/2 "2006-02-05T21:39:05Z")
The only example I can think of at the moment is Leghorn, where the breed of chicken originated, now more commonly called by its Italian name Livorno. It seems to me that the practice of translating place names is on the wane. Old French names of non-French cities that used to be used also seem to be on the wane. For instance, nobody says “Treves” for Trier, or “Aix-la-Chappelle” for Aachen anymore. OTOH “Cologne” for “Koeln” does persist, probably because the German name is difficult for English speakers, and in addition the word has a firmly entrenched non-geographical meaning. On the other hand it does seem that many Italian place names simply were not translated, like Salerno, Bari, and Brindisi. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/3 "2006-02-05T21:40:34Z")
Sienna, Padua, Ravenna? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/4 "2006-02-05T21:51:21Z")
Pisa, Lucca, Bologna. Indeed, I’d hazard that the majority of Italian city names (depending on your definition of city) are non-French. But the ones that were significant in the 18th century, perhaps, seem to have been filtered through from the time that French was the lingua franca. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/5 "2006-02-05T23:50:36Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Pisa, Lucca, Bologna Doesn’t ‘Bologne’ get used at least occassionally? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/6 "2006-02-05T23:53:20Z")
[Filadelfia](http://www.comuni-italiani.it/102/011/) came directly from the Italian, since the community was named for the US city. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/7 "2006-02-06T00:54:20Z")
Apulia - Original Latin form of Puglia. Bologna - In English as I know it, the name of the city has never been anything other than the Italian form, Bologna. Maybe you’re thinking of the sausage loaf that in colloquial American English has become “boloney,” especially when used metaphorically. Like, I think using French names in English is a lot of boloney. Genoa - Neither French (_Gênes_) nor exactly modern Italian. I think it derives from a medieval variant form of Genova that was taken into English. If I’m not mistaken, the original Ligurian form was _Genua_. Latium - Original Latin form of Lazio. Leghorn - I always wondered about its development into the odd form it took in English. According to the Italian site [Eracle](http://eracle.it/citta/toscana/livorno/livorno.asp), the name of Livorno/Leghorn derives from an ancient mythological figure, Ligure the son of King Fetente of the Molossi. (Probably the ancient forms of their names were Liguris and Fetentis.) The sound of [g] between vowels can often become elided into a glide. This has happened as a regular sound shift of the Turkish letter ğ, which began as [g] in earlier forms of Turkish, but has now been elided to a glide, either [j] or [w]. The shift of w\>v in Italian is another regular sound shift. Does that make it clear? I don’t know how the -n got added to the end of the name. Anyway, it looks like Livorno shares the origin of its name with the region of Liguria. Although Livorno is currently in Tuscany, Livorno is near the border of Liguria. That part of northern Tuscany at Livorno was the southernmost reach of the Ligures area in pre-Roman times. Someone help me out here. Mont Blanc - French form of Monte Bianco. Padua - Another medieval variant form taken in by English, while in modern Italian it developed into Padova. From Latin _Patavium_. Syracuse - French form of Συρακουσαι? Trent - French form of Trento? Trieste - I believe this name stays the same, whether English, French, or Italian! Tuscany - Here the anglicized form of Toscana follows a medieval French model. Vesuvius - Original Latin form of Vesuvio. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/8 "2006-02-06T00:59:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Trent - French form of Trento? I’m guessing this is more likely to be a Germanic variant, not least due to geographic influences. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/9 "2006-02-06T01:02:16Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > [Filadelfia](http://www.comuni-italiani.it/102/011/) came directly from the Italian, since the community was named for the US city. Filadelfia/philadelphia comes from Greek, not Latin and that includes the Italian city, which was founded by Greeks in Calabria. In fact Calabria, largely Greek even in the middle ages, is one of the areas where a relictual Greek dialect survives. - Tamerlane ( who hates halftime shows 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/10 "2006-02-06T01:22:00Z")
For both Leghorn and Livorno, I can hypothesize an ancient form \*_Ligurnus_. The addition of -n may derive from an ending in the Ligurian language, which is very little known. The form used in English has retained the velar stop /g/, while in Italian it has developed from a variant or a local dialect, which I hypothesize was probably pronounced \*_Liwurnu_ in Vulgar Latin. The regular shifts of w\>v and u\>o in Italian are well known. Please correct me if I’m in error. Old English postvocalic /g/ also shifted to glides. Compare OE _boga_ with Modern English _bow_ and _fugol_\>_fowl_ (g\>w) as well as _nægl\>nail_ and _regn\>rain_ (g\>j). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/11 "2006-02-06T01:54:02Z")
I think Sienna is another medieval variant form surviving in the English name for a shade of brown pigment. The double -nn- survived from the original Latin name Saenna Julia. The modern Italian form is Siena. There’s a place in Piedmont just south of Turin, named Bra. :o ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/12 "2006-02-06T02:09:07Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Filadelfia/philadelphia comes from Greek, not Latin and that includes the Italian city, which was founded by Greeks in Calabria. In fact Calabria, largely Greek even in the middle ages, is one of the areas where a relictual Greek dialect survives. > > - Tamerlane ( who hates halftime shows 🙂 ) The word comes from the Greek, but the name of the Italian town comes from “Philadelphia” in Pennsylvania. It was founded later by a man who was enamored of the name. IIRC, it’s the only city in the Old World that’s named for a city in the New World. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/13 "2006-02-06T03:23:15Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The word comes from the Greek, but the name of the Italian town comes from “Philadelphia” in Pennsylvania. It was founded later by a man who was enamored of the name. IIRC, it’s the only city in the Old World that’s named for a city in the New World. Hmmm…curses - it looks like you’re right :). I just tried desperately to regain some traction by searching to see if it was founded by some of the remaining Greek dialect survivors in Calabria ( even though I had in fact assumed it was ancient 😉 ), but it while possible, it doesn’t appear likely. By 1783 it looks like they were pretty much confined to the tip of the boot. However I will note that one description claims the town is laid out in a ‘Greek style’ :p. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/14 "2006-02-06T10:21:08Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > For instance, nobody says “Treves” for Trier, or “Aix-la-Chappelle” for Aachen anymore. Nitpick: It’s “Aix-la-Chapelle”. Chappelle is the comedian. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/15 "2006-02-06T15:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Padua Surely the English is a mix of the Italian Padova and the French Padue ? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-city-names-in-english-that-are-not-from-french/343143/16 "2006-02-06T20:03:54Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’m guessing this is more likely to be a Germanic variant, not least due to geographic influences. I think you’re right. Turns out that the French form of the name is [Trente](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messe_tridentine). The final -e was unexpected, because ordinarily that would correspond with the feminine final -a in Italian. Final -o in Italian usually (but not always) corresponds with zero vowel in French cognates.