# Italian Colonization Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 18, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588 "2013-08-18T21:23:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/21 "2013-08-20T17:35:50Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Denmark also got into the act in a minor way with a [colony in the Virgin Islands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_West_Indies) from 1665 until 1916, when the US purchased it for strategic reasons. Greenland, technically, is part of the North American Continent, although it generally is not thought of as “The New World”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/22 "2013-08-21T13:06:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The Dutch were [major colonizers in the Old World as well,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DutchEmpire15.png) and largely kicked the Portuguese out of their original colonies there. Their most important colony by far was the Dutch East Indies, which is modern Indonesia. The Dutch took both the Cape Colony at the Cape of Good Hope and Ceylon/Sri Lanka from the Portuguese but were later ousted themselves by the British. They had a short-lived colony on Formosa/Taiwan as well. Also the only European traders (but not colonizers) in Japan for 2 centuries ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/23 "2013-08-21T13:59:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > …Every branch of scholarship is collective and consensus-based. A single study, however well done, becomes meaningful only when the rest of the profession adopts it. It might take time for the elders to die off before the opposition goes away, but there always will be a pack of younger researchers who advocate for it if the change is truly meaningful… I remember an old _New Yorker_ cartoon showing two tweedy faculty types at a party. One says to the other, who’s glowering, “I hear the revisionists are hot on your trail, Jenkins!” Italy twice tried to conquer Ethiopia, and had a very hard time of it: > **[First Italo-Ethiopian War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Italo-Ethiopian_War)** > > The First Italo-Ethiopian War, also referred to as the First Italo-Abyssinian War, or simply known as the Abyssinian War in Italy, (Italian: Guerra d'Abissinia), was a military confrontation fought between Italy and Ethiopia from 1895 to 1896. It originated from the disputed Treaty of Wuchale, which the Italians claimed turned Ethiopia into an Italian protectorate, while the Ethiopians claimed that the treaty simply ensured peace between the two powers. Full-scale war broke out in 1895, with Ital... > **[Second Italo-Ethiopian War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War)** > > The Second Italo-Ethiopian War, also referred to as the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, was a war of aggression waged by Italy against Ethiopia, which lasted from October 1935 to February 1937. In Ethiopia it is often referred to simply as the Italian Invasion (Amharic: ጣልያን ወረራ, romanized: Ṭalyan warära; Oromo: Weerara Xaaliyaanii), and in Italy as the Ethiopian War (Italian: Guerra d'Etiopia). It is seen as an example of the expansionist policy that characterized the Axis powers and the ineffec... ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/24 "2013-08-21T15:41:55Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Genoa by the mid-16th century had become a virtual protectorate of Spain, which for obvious reasons mitigated against any participation in serious colonial ventures. Similarly, the kingdom of Naples (i.e. most of the southern half of the peninsula) belonged to the King of Spain for most of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. As for lesser known European colonial powers, there were also [the various not-very-successful ventures by Brandenburg in the late seventeenth century](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_German_colonies). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/25 "2013-08-23T11:00:03Z")
Genoa’s major colonization efforts were earlier, in the 12th-14th centuries, where they set up colonies in the eastern Med and Black Sea. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/26 "2013-08-23T14:05:39Z")
I think too, by the 1600’s warfare had shifted to cannon and firearms. (Plus- the ships got bigger) It takes a much larger, much richer base, more resources and industry, to supply and support an army in the field. In the days of knights and spearmen, the city states of Italy were contenders in various battles. By the 1600’s, not so. This same “size matters” issue carried over into commerce and exploration. The size of ship to wander the Mediterranean, and the cost of equipping it, paled in comparison to a 6-month plus round trip to the New World. Plus, a lot of these colonies needed constant resupply, they were more of a drain than an asset. They did not for a long time make their own gunpowder, smelt iron, etc. (The complaints of the French Kings about the cost of maintaining New France figure prominently in Canadian history lessons…) Plus IIRC the Venetians were fighting a rearguard action as th eastern empires and the bigger european powers were slowly chipping away at their empire after 1500. But to be fair, i think it was Daniel Boorstin in “The Discoverers” who talked about the major impetus to sail to China. When Genghis Khan swept across Asia around 1200, he created an empire which was open to foreigners. Before him, and a century later when his empire fell apart, the intermediate empires prevented foreigners from travelling into the silk road area and learning about the trade; but for a few dozen years, people like Marco Polo were free to traverse the continent and return home to tell about it. Once the route was closed, the Europeans now had solid information about the destination and were determined to find an alternate route. Logically, the first question was “can we sail around Africa”? Columbus’ alternative was a long long shot. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/27 "2013-08-23T16:54:17Z")
Was there was a limit to how long Columbus could sail ( due to a lack of food, fresh water, and scurvy) and did he depend on landing on some islands along the way to restock his supplies, or did it not matter? I suppose they could catch fish and capture rain water along the way, but I don’t think they couldn’t sail forever without finding some way to resupply themselves. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/28 "2013-08-23T17:02:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > … > Columbus almost never wrote in Italian (or I should say Genoese, since there wasn’t really a unified Italian language at that stage). However, he often wrote Spanish with Portuguese spellings, which implies that he was not a native Spanish speaker. It is thought that when he left Genoa he may have been semi-illiterate and only learned to write when he lived in Portugal. And circumstances of upbringing can have effects like these even today. I used to know a girl who was from Romania but her first and best language was Russian. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/29 "2013-08-23T17:02:40Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …(The complaints of the French Kings about the cost of maintaining New France figure prominently in Canadian history lessons…) Indeed. In the 1763 Treaty of Paris, the French showed that they considered the return of their sugar colony of Guadeloupe more important than retaining Canada (even if they could). ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/30 "2013-08-23T18:31:38Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Was there was a limit to how long Columbus could sail ( due to a lack of food, fresh water, and scurvy) and did he depend on landing on some islands along the way to restock his supplies, or did it not matter? > > I suppose they could catch fish and capture rain water along the way, but I don’t think they couldn’t sail forever without finding some way to resupply themselves. Yes, supplies were a significant worry in that first voyage. That’s why Columbus kept two logs…one for himself, and one to show the crew, the public log showed that they hadn’t traveled as far as the private log showed. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/31 "2013-08-24T17:19:53Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Was there was a limit to how long Columbus could sail ( due to a lack of food, fresh water, and scurvy) and did he depend on landing on some islands along the way to restock his supplies, or did it not matter? > > I suppose they could catch fish and capture rain water along the way, but I don’t think they couldn’t sail forever without finding some way to resupply themselves. The ability to store food without it going bad and keep a drinkable supply of water limited the amount of time you could spend without resupply. Food preservation methods at this time were not entirely effective, especially in an environment where it was difficult to keep things dry. Flour or hardtack and dried vegetables would become moldy or maggot-ridden. Even salted meat could go bad. The only way to collect large quantities of rainwater would have been to use the sails, which would usually be permeated with salt. Another severe limitation was scurvy, which was not common before this era because ships rarely spent long at sea without restocking with fresh fruit or vegetables. Magellan lost a number of his crew members to scurvy during his 3-month crossing of the Pacific, though the cause of the deaths was considered something of a mystery at the time. Magellan and his officers didn’t get sick because they had the small luxury of fruit preserves available to them. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/32 "2013-08-24T19:32:50Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s absurd for the researcher to claim that the study constitutes proof that Columbus was from Aragon. Even if the links to Catalan in Columbus’s writings is correct (and this is just one study), that hardly proves that he was actually from there. Castilian Spanish was clearly not Columbus’s native language, and others such as Morrison have linked Columbus’s errors to having first learned Portuguese. But if he picked up his Spanish at the court of Ferdinand and Isabella, that would be reason enough for there to be some Catalan influence on his Castilian, since Ferdinand was Aragonese. (Isabella was from Castile.) If you want to look for a place where Columbus could have gotten some Catalan, even inadvertently, how about Catalonia? The Kings were in Barcelona when he came back from the first trip; he spent quite some time there. And as far as I know, Ferdinand spoke about as much Catalan as Basque, which is none. There would have been Catalans in his court but the general language was Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588/33 "2013-08-24T20:10:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And as far as I know, Ferdinand spoke about as much Catalan as Basque, which is none. There would have been Catalans in his court but the general language was Spanish. I guess I had assumed Ferdinand was from a lineage native to Aragon. On checking, I see that he was from the House of [Trastamara,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Trast%C3%A1mara) which was of Castilian origin. Also, although the Kingdom of Aragon included the Catalan-speaking County of Barcelona most of Aragon itself was Castilian-speaking. But as you say, Columbus’s Castilian could easily have picked up Catalan influences when he was at the royal court. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-colonization-question/666588.md?page=1)