# Italian tanks and Ethiopian spears **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 27, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212 "2009-06-27T23:25:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/1 "2009-06-27T23:25:30Z")
I have read in several places that there is at least one documented case of an Ethiopian spear penetrating the armour on an Italian tank during the Second World War, resulting in the death of the tank’s driver. This came up recently in a discussion about zombies, and I was told that it is, more or less, an urban legend (or at least a great exaggeration). There are a lot of jokes about the incompetence of the Italian military (“Why does the new Italian navy have glass bottoms on their boats? So they can see the _old_ Italian navy…”), so it’s entirely possible that this story is indeed just anti-Italian ridicule. I’ve been hunting around with Google and I can’t find anything which conclusively confirms or disproves the anecdote. Maybe one of you can help? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/2 "2009-06-27T23:27:16Z")
It’s similar to the old myth about Polish horse cavalry charging German tanks early in the war, which was created by the Germans as a bit of anti-Polish propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/3 "2009-06-28T00:28:10Z")
Have you ever played the _Civilization_ series? Spearmen carry +5 spears of tank slaying. ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/4 "2009-06-28T00:42:55Z")
I don’t know what it is about disparaging the Italian military but when I was in the Army I heard a joke about Italian tanks. They have one gear for forward and four for reverse. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/5 "2009-06-28T00:50:27Z")
> [@Amp](#): > > I don’t know what it is about disparaging the Italian military but when I was in the Army I heard a joke about Italian tanks. They have one gear for forward and four for reverse. Jeez, I heard this joke thousand times but with France instead. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/6 "2009-06-28T02:07:28Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Jeez, I heard this joke thousand times but with France instead. Me too. France is always the butt of coward jokes in modern-day North America. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/7 "2009-06-28T02:34:41Z")
The reality is that the Italian Army, while never in the greatest of, was never all that bad. Its equipment was OK for early & pre-WW2, but hey weren’t so big on improving the gear. When Italians first encountered Brits in the desert they came off very poorly. Most of the impressions were made at that point. Afterwards, the Italian army actually improved dramatically but it wasn’t enough to stop the Brits, or impress Rommel later on that they were worthwhile. I would point out the thing Italians brought to Etheopia were the L3 tankettes, which had only 6mm thick at some points. As to wether a spear could penetrate this is not for me to judge. But i kinda doubt it. The Mark 1 tanks of WW1 only had as much and they were mostly bulletproof. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/8 "2009-06-28T02:40:37Z")
I think it could happen but only during the 2 hours that the Italians shut down tank operations for lunch every day. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/9 "2009-06-28T05:01:11Z")
Why does the thickness of the armor matter? The story has it that the spear penetrated an air vent, not the armor. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/10 "2009-06-28T07:35:14Z")
I seem to recall that in an earlier thread, it said that the resons for the fiasco in Ethiopia–the natives held Italian invaders off for _eight months_ with primitive weapons–was the result of poor morale in Il Duce’s army. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/11 "2009-06-28T07:54:11Z")
> [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](#): > > Me too. France is always the butt of coward jokes in modern-day North America. Be glad to trade you some ARVN rifles. Never been fired and only dropped once. I’ve never heard this before, but my first thought was the same as **Derleth** ; it sounds very much like the myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks. ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/12 "2009-06-28T08:11:11Z")
Given a lot of the Ethopians were armed with spears and the ones that did have weapons had ones made from before 1900…They did not have the greatest gear in the world. I could totally see this happening, I mean doesn’t the tank drivers head stick out? Or he has a little cut out hole right? A one in a million shot is improbable not impossible. I mean even if he did get the kill he would soon be dead pretty quickly anyways ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/13 "2009-06-28T08:29:24Z")
[Semi reputable cite](http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QPGC7PCwgRgC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=tanks+spears+italian&source=bl&ots=14Av-S6Qta&sig=ZCdxBEC2QnrRTj9MnULQBdB6cDI&hl=en&ei=NCVHSsL6C8SfkQXGmYXwCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/14 "2009-06-28T23:03:10Z")
The Italian tankettes used in Ethiopia (the CV 35/L-3) was armed with front facing machine guns. This meant that they vulnerable from behind, and so Ethiopian anti-tank doctrine was to disable the tracks and guns from behind. Then they could kill the crews without much risk. When the Ethiopians had success against Italian tanks, it was usually with this method, and they succeeded in destroying six tanks at Dembeguina Pass by doing just that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/15 "2009-06-28T23:06:16Z")
> [@ChrisBooth12](#): > > A one in a million shot is improbable not impossible. A one-in-a-million chance turns up successful nine times out of ten. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/16 "2009-06-28T23:21:50Z")
Drivers have viewports that consist of… an open hole in front of the driver’s face. Sneak up, stick a spear in, impale the face… not hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/17 "2009-06-29T01:40:15Z")
I poked around on some newspaper archive sites, but I haven’t turned up a clear reference to spears piercing armor yet. I did find a number of references to primitively-armed Ethiopians defeating Italian troops, but nothing quite specific enough. One near miss comes in an AP article appearing on 1/24/36: > [@AP](#): > > An Ethiopian bayonet attack which smashed an Italian drive in the mountains northward of Makale, on the northern front, was described Friday by a Dessye correspondent of the News Chronicle. > > Italian tanks, armored cars, and native and Italian troops, preceded by squadrons of airplanes, moved toward Tembien province from the area Monday, the correspondent said. > > Ethiopians of the armies of Ras Kassa and Ras Riyoum, he reported, swept down mountain sides to the Italian columns, bewildering them with a withering fire, and > then charged with bayonet, spear and sword. > > The Italians were forced to retreat eastward to the Gheralta area, the correspondent said, where the battle continued. So, the Ethiopians first fired on the Italians with guns, then got in close enough to use the spears and swords. I can see “Italian tanks defeated by spear-wielding Ethiopians” morphing into the legend that Ethiopian spears could actually pierce Italian armor. Still, far be it from me to suggest that the Ethiopians weren’t badasses. In an article appearing in the _Alton (Ill.) Evening Telegraph_ on 11/22/35, this little tidbit appears: > [@Alton Daily Telegraph](#): > > Ethiopians say of Mussolini’s powerful tanks that carry cannon and machine guns and spit fire and bullets: “We do not fear tanks; once we are near them they are lost.” One commander of Ethiopian troops, Gen. Wolde Glorgis, says he and his men captured six Italian tanks easily. They poured gasoline over the tank, set fire to it, and intense heat forced the tank crew to come out and surrender. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/18 "2009-06-29T03:12:03Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Drivers have viewports that consist of… an open hole in front of the driver’s face. Sneak up, stick a spear in, impale the face… not hard to believe. Not exactly. The driver has a visor that can tilt up, which is about 1.5’ long and 6-8" high. However, in combat, the visor is closed and there is only a very narrow slot, less than 1/2" tall. A spear wouldn’t go through the vision slit. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/19 "2009-06-29T06:20:47Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The reality is that the Italian Army, while never in the greatest of, was never all that bad. Its equipment was OK for early & pre-WW2, but they weren’t so big on improving the gear. Primarily because they were the first European armed forces to mechanise, which in turn was because Mussolini came to power in 1922 (17 years before WWII started) whereas Hitler didn’t get there until 1933 (6 years before WWII started). The Italian economy was so weak that while they could build a competitive army , air force and navy once, they couldn’t afford to upgrade them as technology changed over that period. As so often in the history of technology, those who come late to the race do better as they don’t waste their efforts with the early attempts. This is how the US ended up with the dreadful NTSC TV standard, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212/20 "2009-06-29T15:51:50Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Not exactly. The driver has a visor that can tilt up, which is about 1.5’ long and 6-8" high. However, in combat, the visor is closed and there is only a very narrow slot, less than 1/2" tall. A spear wouldn’t go through the vision slit. I could get a spear point through that if my life depended on it. But really, the problem with Italian armies in WWII and the period of colonial conquest is that the average Italian citizen’s heart wasn’t in it. The Italians were notoriously fond of America because of our immigration policies, were aghast to discover themselves at war with America, and declined to fight hard against Americans when they encountered them later in the war. Even before that, conquest – killing people and taking their stuff – just didn’t appeal to that many Italians, meaning that conscript troops did their best to keep their heads down and come home. The ruthlessness of the Nazi ideology, the emotional need to prove people wrong about the First World War, the code of _Bushido_, the desperation of the displaced Cossack, all the things that made other national fighting forces fierce in WWII were missing from the Italian mindset. It’s not that they were cowards _per se,_ it’s that they weren’t cold-hearted killers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italian-tanks-and-ethiopian-spears/501212.md?page=2)