# Italians and WOPS **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 28, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251 "2011-03-28T13:17:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/41 "2011-03-30T13:03:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Other than “OK” and “Nabisco”, of course. Neither of those is an acronym. OK is an initialism, Nabisco is a portmanteau word. ---
**Author:** ![GlennRayinTroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@GlennRayinTroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GlennRayinTroy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/42 "2011-03-30T13:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > The standard rule is that nearly all etymologies that claim to show that an English word comes from an acronym are wrong if the supposed acronym was coined before World War I. This business turning of acronyms into words didn’t really get started until World War I (and didn’t really get into high gear until World War II). > [@](#): > > Other than “OK” and “Nabisco”, of course. There’s always SNAFU. “Limey” was a refererence to sailors on 18th century British ships that always carried a supply of limes to battle scurvy, a deteriorating disease due to lack of Vitamin C. Some admiral in London at that time kept up-to-date on nutrition and disease, it seems. Why limes and not oranges? Umm, limes keep better? From my time in California, I seem to remember “taco-eaters” for Mexicans and other Hispanics. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/43 "2011-03-30T14:54:50Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Neither of those is an acronym. OK is an initialism, Nabisco is a portmanteau word. As a descriptivist, I accepted that acronym expanded its definition to include initialisms ages ago. The purists insist than an acronym must be a pronouncable word, like radar or scuba, and not a series of leters, like OMG. So what about Nabisco? Portmanteau words are traditionally made from the first half of one word and the last half of another, as in smog from smoke and fog. That’s not a hard and fast rule but it troubles me to apply it to Nabisco. Acronym is actually a better choice. From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/acronym): > [@](#): > > a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words, Groups of letters would include Nabisco. And I cheated earlier. Radar is often used as an example of true acronym rather than initialism, but **ra** dio **d** etecting **a** nd **r** anging groups letters just as Nabisco does. I vote for acronym. > [@GlennRayinTroy](#): > > There’s always SNAFU. Not always. Just since 1941. A long time after WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/44 "2011-03-30T16:24:19Z")
> [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > My sister looked this up not long ago, after one of my students said to me, “No kidding! You’re a guinea?” So the term is still around, although that’s the first I’ve heard it in a couple of decades. I’ve heard “wop” more recently. I still find them both ridiculous and offensive. I don’t have a cite since I didn’t research it myself, but “guinea” is supposed to be a shortened version of the term “Guinea African,” referring to the dark skin [relative, I assume, to the speaker’s] tone of some Italians. Sicilians are of partly African descent. In the summertime, my dad gets so dark-skinned I don’t know how he passes for white. But don’t you DARE tell my relatives that we’re African-descended; all you’ll get is denials and dirty looks. I think it’s cool, but then I’ve always been the black sheep of my family (the obvious pun isn’t intentional; I just don’t know any substitute for the useful phrase “black sheep”). My interest in the fact is how come I began to study Arabic language, which developed into my whole career. So it’s definitely a good thing by me. What I can’t explain is why Guinea, since Ethiopia has traditionally been the paradigmatic African country. Well, that’s geographically-challenged Americans for you. Our actual origin is Tunisia. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/45 "2011-03-30T16:36:16Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Yes, WOP, diego, hunkie, gook, chink, frog, kraut, spic, kike, poluk, etc. are gone in these politically correct times. Frogs is still okay. No one likes the cheese eating surrender monkeys. _munches on some Freedom fries_ ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/46 "2011-03-30T21:13:34Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Obviously one who’s never noticed his pale-faced countrymen lining up to buy Indian food after a night at the pub! Yeah… the sting rather goes when ones peers are happily chowing down on the same thing. “Bloody curry-munchers coming over here taking our jobs…” “Sorry, what did you say Dad? I was engrossed in my Chicken Vindaloos… pass the Poppadoms will you?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/47 "2011-03-30T21:31:25Z")
What I find interesting is how many ethnic slurs are based on food. Curry munchers, taco benders, spaghetti benders, krauts, beaners, garlic eaters, frogs, limeys… I’ve even heard Swedes referred to as herring chokers. What’s even more interesting is that slurs against African-Americans, as many of them as there are, and as many foods that are stereotypically depicted as black cuisine, I can’t think of any black slurs that are food based. Can anyone? Is this because food based insults are considered tamer than some others that could be used? By the way, the slur against whites, cracker, is food based. ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/48 "2011-03-30T23:24:33Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > My mother’s side has some Norwegian ancestry and my mom’s mom always said that ‘troll’ was used as a slur for Norwegians. Has anyone else heard that? > > In any event, I also come from a line of krauts, which is interesting as it’s one of the few food-based ethnic slurs I know of. The other is rosbif, for ‘roast beef’, which is an old French slur against the British. Others? My father came to the United States from Nova Scotia around 1920. He and his Nova Scotia friends used to refer in a joking manner to other Nova Scotians as “Herring Chokers”. The curious thing is that Urban Dictionary makes a point of saying that Nova Scotians should be called “Blue Noses” and never “Herring Chokers.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/49 "2011-03-31T03:36:47Z")
Johanna writes: \> Sicilians are of partly African descent. You want to be really careful who you say that to: From the movie _Reservoir Dogs_: Clifford Worley: You’re Sicilian, huh? Coccotti: Yeah, Sicilian. Clifford Worley: Ya know, I read a lot. Especially about things… about history. I find that shit fascinating. Here’s a fact I don’t know whether you know or not. Sicilians were spawned by niggers. Coccotti: Come again? Clifford Worley: It’s a fact. Yeah. You see, uh, Sicilians have, uh, black blood pumpin’ through their hearts. Hey, no, if eh, if eh, if you don’t believe me, uh, you can look it up. Hundreds and hundreds of years ago, uh, you see, uh, the Moors conquered Sicily. And the Moors are niggers. Coccotti: Yes… Clifford Worley: So you see, way back then, uh, Sicilians were like, uh, wops from Northern Italy. Ah, they all had blonde hair and blue eyes, but, uh, well, then the Moors moved in there, and uh, well, they changed the whole country. They did so much fuckin’ with Sicilian women, huh? That they changed the whole bloodline forever. That’s why blonde hair and blue eyes became black hair and dark skin. You know, it’s absolutely amazing to me to think that to this day, hundreds of years later, that, uh, that Sicilians still carry that nigger gene. Now this… [Coccotti busts out laughing] Clifford Worley: No, I’m, no, I’m quoting… history. It’s written. It’s a fact, it’s written. Coccotti: [laughing] I love this guy. Clifford Worley: Your ancestors are niggers. Uh-huh. [Starts laughing, too] Clifford Worley: Hey. Yeah. And, and your great-great-great-great grandmother fucked a nigger, ho, ho, yeah, and she had a half-nigger kid… now, if that’s a fact, tell me, am I lying? 'Cause you, you’re part eggplant. [All laugh] Vincenzo Coccotti: Ohhh! Clifford Worley: Huh? Hey! Hey! Hey! [motioning with his hand three times] Vincenzo Coccotti: You’re a cantaloupe. [shoots Cliff in the face] ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/50 "2011-03-31T03:39:38Z")
Two Many Cats writes: \> By the way, the slur against whites, cracker, is food based. No, it’s not: > **[cracker | Etymology, origin and meaning of cracker by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/cracker)** > > CRACKER Meaning: "hard wafer," literally "that which cracks or breaks," agent noun from crack (v.). The specific… See origin and meaning of cracker. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/51 "2011-03-31T11:34:44Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > From the movie _Reservoir Dogs_: That’s from _True Romance_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/52 "2011-03-31T13:56:38Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Sicilians are of partly African descent. All Europeans probably have at least some sub-Saharan ancestors within the last few thousand years, since slaves and others from the areas were present from the time of the Roman Empire. While Sicily was conquered by Arabs in the 9th Century AD, it was more recently under the control of Normans, Germans, and the Spainish. So I doubt that Sicilians have a lot more sub-Saharan African ancestry than any other southern Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/53 "2011-03-31T14:25:43Z")
Kobal2 writes: \> That’s from True Romance. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I looked it up and realized that my memory was wrong, but then I forgot to correct what I had already put down in my reply. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/54 "2011-03-31T15:02:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Sicilians are of partly African descent. In the summertime, my dad gets so dark-skinned I don’t know how he passes for white. But don’t you DARE tell my relatives that we’re African-descended; all you’ll get is denials and dirty looks. I think it’s cool, but then I’ve always been the black sheep of my family (the obvious pun isn’t intentional; I just don’t know any substitute for the useful phrase “black sheep”). My interest in the fact is how come I began to study Arabic language, which developed into my whole career. So it’s definitely a good thing by me. What I can’t explain is why Guinea, since Ethiopia has traditionally been the paradigmatic African country. Well, that’s geographically-challenged Americans for you. Our actual origin is Tunisia. If science is to be believed (and why not?) we all descend from an Adam and Eve in Africa. At least, that’s what the National Genographic Project keeps telling me. I learned most of the ethnic slurs above from Monty Python or HBO comedy specials. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/55 "2011-03-31T16:00:07Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Two Many Cats writes: > > \> By the way, the slur against whites, cracker, is food based. > > No, it’s not: > > [Cracker - Etymology, Origin & Meaning](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cracker) Interesting. I’ve never heard that explanation before. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/56 "2011-04-16T08:23:18Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > > [@Romeo and Whatsherface](#): > > > > “guinea” is supposed to be a shortened version of the term “Guinea African,” referring to the dark skin [relative, I assume, to the speaker’s] tone of some Italians. > > What I can’t explain is why Guinea, since Ethiopia has traditionally been the paradigmatic African country. Well, that’s geographically-challenged Americans for you. Our actual origin is Tunisia. So “Guinea” was taken as a representative black African country for the purpose of labeling Italians as Black. Without checking, I’d guess that the name “Guinea” became current in England during the slave trade of the 18th century, or else no later than the early 19th-century(?) introduction of the coin by that name, originally minted of gold from the nation of Guinea. But for many centuries, Ethiopia had (I bet) been the only Black country whose name English people knew, so Ethiopian had long been used as a synonym for Black. Following this line of logic, Italians might have been labeled Ethiopians instead. Which would be a fine irony, since Italy invaded and occupied Ethiopia 1936–1941. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/57 "2011-04-16T15:15:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > So “Guinea” was taken as a representative black African country for the purpose of labeling Italians as Black. Without checking, I’d guess that the name “Guinea” became current in England during the slave trade of the 18th century, or else no later than the early 19th-century(?) introduction of the coin by that name, originally minted of gold from the nation of Guinea. Probably not. I found a whole [column on ethnic slur etymologies](http://vernondent.blogspot.com/2006/02/carnival-of-etymologies_16.html), which seems to be pretty solid. I didn’t check every one carefully but it gets cracker and wog correct. For Guinea: > [@](#): > > Like guinea as a derogatory term for “Italian,” which first turns up about 1896. It’s from Guinea Negro which meant simply “black person,” Guinea being a region in West Africa. It was applied to Italians probably because of their dark complexions relative to northern Europeans, and after 1911 it occasionally was applied to Hispanics and Pacific Islanders as well. Probably taken directly from the [Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=guinea&searchmode=none). > [@](#): > > Guinea “derogatory term for Italian” (1896) was originally Guinea Negro (1740s) and meant “black person, person of mixed ancestry.” It was applied to Italians c.1890 probably because of their dark complexions relative to northern Europeans, and after 1911 was occasionally applied to Hispanics and Pacific Islanders as well. New Guinea was so named 1546 by Spanish explorer Inigo Ortiz de Retes in reference to the natives’ dark skin and tightly curled hair. It’s a late coinage in the sense we’re used to. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/58 "2011-04-16T21:43:55Z")
> [@Gus Gusterson's cite](#): > > Several American dictionaries will tell you that wop is an acronym for “without papers” or “without passport,” supposedly formerly stamped on the immigration documents of certain newcomers arrived from Italy. Really? I’d like to know which (printed) dictionaries tell you this. Most lexicographers are smart enough to scrutinize and screen out such folk etymologies. I rather suspect that the critic here may himself be guilty of making baseless claims without citing sources. ---
**Author:** ![whereismymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/49beb7/32.png) [@whereismymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whereismymind)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/59 "2011-04-16T21:59:46Z")
i have always been offended by carpet muncher…lesbian don’t get down on the carpet part! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251/60 "2011-04-17T01:13:25Z")
> [@whereismymind](#): > > i have always been offended by carpet muncher…lesbian don’t get down on the carpet part! Look up [synecdoche](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/synecdoche). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italians-and-wops/576251.md?page=2)