# Italy attempts to arrest 13 CIA agents for arresting/extraditing a suspect to Egypt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757 "2005-06-25T00:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/1 "2005-06-25T00:29:22Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/italy\_cia;\_ylt=AoE8EN6X.FufhFYV1gpPL3Cs0NUE;\_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/italy_cia;_ylt=AoE8EN6X.FufhFYV1gpPL3Cs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-) ROME - An Italian judge on Friday ordered the arrests of 13 CIA officers for secretly transporting a Muslim preacher from Italy to Egypt as part of U.S. anti-terrorism efforts — a rare public objection to the practice by a close American ally The Egyptian was spirited away in 2003, purportedly as part of the CIA’s “extraordinary rendition” program in which terror suspects are transferred to third countries without court approval, subjecting them to possible torture. I don’t know if their motive was to prohibit torture but the UN convention on torture says [http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html](http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html) Article 3 No State Party shall expel, return (“refouler”) or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture. And both the US and Italy ratified it. Maybe their motive was just anger over feeling Italian soveriginity was violated. But if it was to prohibit torture then good for them. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/2 "2005-06-25T00:57:47Z")
Given the context, there’s some irony in the article’s last sentence : > [@](#): > > “At some point the Americans will begin to think they can’t trust the Italians,” Dottori said. I mean, seriously, how could you trust guys who make a fuss just because you secretly abduct people in their country…? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/3 "2005-06-25T01:08:08Z")
Ummm… the bastard had it coming… Nah… I got nothin’… it’s just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/4 "2005-06-25T13:08:55Z")
I don’t think it’s correct to see any motive of the Italian **government** in this at all. More likely it’s good police work motivated by A) a sense of justice and B) a bit of ‘let’s get those damn american’s back even if our government won’t’. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/5 "2005-06-26T15:45:58Z")
If the Italians did this to prevent torture, good for them. If they did it to enforce their own laws against kidnapping, good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/6 "2005-06-26T17:39:01Z")
[In Italy, Anger at U.S. Tactics Colors Spy Case](http://nytimes.com/2005/06/26/international/europe/26milan.html?hp&ex=1119844800&en=3f673543b076e9c8&ei=5094&partner=homepage) My initial reading of this article was that the Italians are pissed at the Americans most of all for screwing up a long and careful terrorism investigation. > [@](#): > > As early as spring 2002, the Italians tipped off the Americans about Mr. Nasr’s activities, Italian investigators said. Methodically, using a mixture of electronic surveillance, wiretaps and surveillance, the Italian police collected evidence that Mr. Nasr was trying to build a jihadist recruitment network with tentacles spreading throughout Europe. Part of a pattern, too. > [@](#): > > Sharing access has become a sore point between American and European officials in several high-profile terrorism cases in Europe, including that of Mounir el-Motassadeq, a suspected associate of several Sept. 11 hijackers. On Feb. 19, 2003, he was convicted in Germany on charges related to the 2001 attacks - the only conviction thus far - but the case crumbled on appeal, and he was released in April 2004. German officials openly blamed American officials for failing to provide crucial evidence. He is being retried. > > And the Bush administration has refused to allow the Spanish authorities to interview Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a central Qaeda suspect, to bolster their case against two men on trial in Madrid on charges of helping to plan the 2001 attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/7 "2005-06-26T18:38:24Z")
I read about this in the International Herald Tribune today. Several people contacted for the article seemed to think the CIA agents were operating with the consent of the Italian government, since the agents were operating so openly (renting cars using their real names, making long phone calls on their cell phones, leaving their cell phones turned on for hours at a time, etc.). Fortunately, the police apparently decided that the Italian government may not merely set aside Italian law when it suits them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/8 "2005-06-27T18:25:07Z")
I am embarrassed that my country’s government has this kidnap-to-torture policy, and that it came down to the Italian government to stand up and say, “This is wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/9 "2005-06-27T18:47:03Z")
Why be embarrassed, some pubby’ll come along any moment and justify for you. It does make me wonder if this is only the milder end if US activity, the more one hears and reads, the less shiny the principles of the US appear to be. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/10 "2005-06-28T03:44:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > If the Italians did this to prevent torture, good for them. If they did it to enforce their own laws against kidnapping, good for them. Yeah, ain’t it cool? It does, though, make one uneasy to see how far, how psychopathically far, our governmentis from perceiving the reality that they actually inhabit and how they are viewed in that reality by others ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/11 "2005-06-29T11:15:50Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > I am embarrassed that my country’s government has this kidnap-to-torture policy, and that it came down to the Italian government to stand up and say, “This is wrong.” Some of the articles I have read have expressed dismay that the message is not “Extraordinary rendition and torture are wrong” but “It was wrong and inappropriate to cut us out of the operation” ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/italy-attempts-to-arrest-13-cia-agents-for-arresting-extraditing-a-suspect-to-egypt/309757/12 "2005-06-29T15:21:58Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > Some of the articles I have read have expressed dismay that the message is not “Extraordinary rendition and torture are wrong” but “It was wrong and inappropriate to cut us out of the operation” When you say “cut us out of the operation,” who is “us?” Do you mean that Italy would rather be in on the torture? Please clarify.